Kelli Kedis Ogborn:
0:35
The technology engaging in those environments is the difficult part, right? But space, in and of itself, it's all the other things. It's the maneuverability, it's the policy, it's the coordination, it's a lot of that human stuff that sometimes makes it difficult, not saying that the environment isn't, but it's not. It's not as tricky as it once was, right? And so people still think of it as the final frontier, and it absolutely is, but when you talk about it in that way, you forget that like there's a $570
Unknown:
1:06
billion economy that is actually producing economic return for countries and localities all over the world, and people just forget about that, and just think the exploration aspect.
Blythe Milligan:
1:17
Welcome into another episode of everything is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers in freight. I'm your host, Blythe Milligan, and we were proudly presented by SPI logistics, and we've got a great episode for y'all today. We've got Kelli Kedis Ogborn. She is the VP of Space Commerce and Entrepreneurship at the Space Foundation, and we're gonna be talking about how to do business in space and the overall, just landscape of everything that's going on, because it's a lot going on. And so based on our previous you know series that we've done on, you know, NASA and space logistics. The I'm sure the audience is just as excited for this conversation as I am. So Kelly, welcome to the show. Thank you, Blythe. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's one of my favorite things to to talk to audiences that are extremely implicated in the space economy and its growth, but probably don't know. So I appreciate you having me on absolutely now, I have a million questions to ask and so, but before we get into, like, some of you know, like, the more nitty gritty type of questions for this audience, give us a sense of your career background, how you got involved in Space Foundation, all that good stuff. Yeah, so I it's a funny story, because I would have never pictured myself working in the space industry or doing what I do now, which is kind of part and parcel why I do what I do now. So just quick, kind of history trajectory highlights. I come from a social scientist sociological background, so academically, both undergrad and grad, I was actually kind of trained on the conflict of war, and, like the psychology of war, and really a lot of the movements of people, thought that I wanted to do that with my career in terms of international aid and, you know, sort of everything that comes about with it. But I moved to DC in 2008 did a quick stint on the hill, and then found myself over at DARPA, which is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is the science and tech branch of the Department of Defense. And while I was there, I was fascinated by innovation and technology and really like these cutting edge research and development projects that really play into other markets. And I quickly realized that a lot of my skill sets from my academic training is specifically like aid like, what I used to look at is, how do you design aid packages for third world crises and really get the human side of the adoption really also fits on the tech side. So when we are looking at moving these radical innovations and ideas that are so far out of the imagination of people, how do you get them to grasp those concepts, adopt those concepts. And how do you actually build a strategy to understand how to make it scalable, not just from a business aspect, but from a human aspect? So that was sort of where my career dovetailed, and then I left DARPA ran a tech commercialization company for seven years that worked really heavily with scientists and engineers to help them find alternative commercial markets for what they developed, because so many of them might have developed like a laser for a tank. Well, there's no commercial market for a laser on a tank, but there are, you know, very special components, or maybe, you know, sub parts that are way ahead of industry standards. So thinking through those alternative methods. That sort of led me to the Space Foundation, because at the time, in 2018
Unknown:
4:37
the Space Foundation had won a grant through the Department of Commerce to help non traditional businesses find their place in space. And so I was brought in to really help design and run those workshops around the country, so looking at everything from artists to mechanics to people in the food service and how they they play in the future growth of space, and it sort of just snowballed from there, wow. I mean, you really sound like the perfect person to be able to have, you know, these types of initiatives that the Space Foundation is is looking to achieve. So, so give us that, that high level overview of what the, I guess the current like space ecosystem looks like. I heard it was like a 500 million or $500 billion enterprise right now that's evolving into 800 billion. Is that accurate? Yes. So there are so many projections of what it's going to become. I think. The benchmark that a lot of people use, it's somewhere between one to 4 trillion by 2040 but in reality, as you mentioned right now. So the Space Foundation puts out a space economy number every year that looks at the past quantification of the year. We currently have it tagged at 570 billion. We're going to release our new number next month, which is very exciting. So stay on track for that. But conservatively, we think that it's at least going to reach 772 billion by 2027 which is only two years away. So I think the best way to encapsulate what we mean when we talk about the space economy, and really just the space ecosystem, is for so long space has been, I would say, monopolized by imagery of rockets and satellites and astronauts, because that is, that is classic space, and that is 100% true. You know, our space industry grew out of the Apollo era, where we were in a moon race with the Russians. And at that time, it was, you know, national posturing first, because we needed to be boots on the ground first, and then scientific exploration and technical progression were kind of secondary and tertiary. We're now in a completely different domain, because, as we've continued to engage within space, yes, we do have exploration missions, and we do have a lot of satellites flowing flying, but the ecosystem now has shifted to a place where there is more access, opportunity and engagement than ever before, driven by the proliferation of satellites. Just as a data point, for example, there are currently roughly 12,000 active satellites in orbit. There's already 20,000 that have licenses, and by 2035 we think there's going to be 50,000 plus satellites. So that, in and of itself, brings a lot of opportunity, but also reusable launch, and the cadence of launch now has completely decreased to the point where more people are able to go up, more people are able to take advantage of the opportunities and the what space can bring to bear, whether it's from manufacturing or data or, you know, space tourism eventually and so in the collective mind, space feels more tangible because it is and that, in and of itself, has shifted a lot of companies and countries to now realize that they should be thinking about space, or at least understand how they can play into The future of space. Now, of that, you know, nearly 800 billion. How much is the the US, I guess, in control of that or not, maybe not in control of it. But how much is that US players? So that's a phenomenal question. So just to break that down, so the 570 billion is really encapsulated by two main markers. It's about 78% commercial revenue and 22% global government spending. So this is a global number. What it looks at is roughly about 50 countries, space spending, budgets, as much data as we're able to collect, an interesting data point. And then I'll answer your question, is that around the world, there's roughly about 80 space agencies, which is quite remarkable. And what we're starting to see over the past couple of years as a trend is that if a country isn't able to really create and mobilize their own space agency, they're creating at least space offices, like out of their commerce department or out of their trade ministry, to at least understand that space is an important economic driver for their nation, and also national security and sort of everything else that comes with it. But it's also a way for them to sort of put their flag in the sand, to say that we are interested in space. We want to become part of this economy, and then looking at opportunities to bring in the industries that already exist within their locality to be part of it. The United States is still the main, the main driver. So out of the global government spending, the United States, the European Space Agency in China, sort of make up the top three. And then there's a the flow down of the other nations, but we are still the predominant and then how does that break? A breakdown from, I guess, from the US standpoint, is it because it feels like it's mostly commercial, that it's, you know, SpaceX and you know these other company, Rocket Lab, Blue Origin, they partner with NASA and their launch facilities or their launch programs, but it feels like it's much more commercial now. Is, is that accurate? So So yes, and so that's a really interesting question for a couple of reasons. When you talk about the commercial space industry and ecosystem, there's, there really is no such thing as a true commercial company, primarily because the number one customer in all commercial markets right now are still governments. So we are at this really interesting point within the commercialization flywheel of space, of space, traditionally being a pull industry to a push industry, and so it's primarily been driven by government. Directives or government needs, the commercial market can innovate much faster. I mean, they can they can design, they can develop, they can innovate. But at the end of the day, the government is still the primary procurement of the product of the services. We need to flip that model. And so currently, right now, one of the best examples that is supposed to sort of show how this push pull between the government and the commercial will actually flow is with the retirement of the International Space Station, which I think most, most people know this is happening, but it's been flying since the 90s. It's old. It's outdated. It's time to retire. And in the mix of that, what NASA wanted to do is, instead of themselves designing and developing and sort of running a space station, they put out bids to allow commercial companies to compete to replace the International Space Station. But the model is really interesting, because those commercial companies would then own it'd be a privately owned Space Station. NASA would become one of many customers. So the goal is for them to move all of their research and development and manufacturing currently being done on the ISS to these private models to then allow them to still continue the vital research and all the things that they need to do, but then also give the opportunity to universities and commercial companies and other private players To have access to low Earth orbit for their needs. And so it's, it's one of the first examples of how this flywheel could accelerate and how we can start to really bring in more users beyond a government. But right now, private is they are privately owned, but the government is still an anchor customer. Is kind of the way to look at it, yeah, because I was talking to a gentleman that worked at NASA, and he mentioned that, you know, every four years their budgets change, yes, and a lot of these missions are sometimes decades long and are in development before actually launching. And so he said, he's like, we need to be insulated from that. And I think, you know, with a lot of, you know, sort of the drama around, you know, policy changes and things like that, and budgets being cut, it just makes more sense to have the commercial element involved. So you're not, especially from a NASA standpoint, even though they are an institution. But to be able to rely on commercial partners to fulfill those those experiments and that research that they've been wanting to build is that a safe, you know, outside perspective, looking in completely accurate, yeah, so, so the rise of the private commercial company, in terms of developing something independently from just a government bid, right, is really what we're talking about when we say that that has been continuing to Rise, and it surely will continue to have a place at the forefront where we're looking now with this landscape, and particularly, as you said, with, you know, shifting budgets, shifting priorities, private companies are really expected to take the lead, really driving innovation, you know, through their increased investments. But then there is this strategic collaboration between commercial and government entities from a utilization stance. And so I think we're going to start to see some really interesting consolidation, some really interesting, maybe innovation arcs right in the next coming years. Because I personally think that scarcity can breed innovation. And we are at a point right now in this 2025, landscape, where we are starting to engage with space at such an operational tempo that we are at a place where it is almost too big to fail. And so we need to start closing business models. We need to start consolidating supply chains. And we really need to start to put a lot of the infrastructure and technologies that have really interesting demos, but they need to be able to scale to create this next evolution and next generation backbone for what we want the economy to become. I guess, how moving into, I guess some of the, I guess, businesses that are kind of in space now, I from what I understand, you know, imaging is the, the number one business model for space right now communications, of course, are there any other aspects that are happening in space right now that are profitable that can encourage more missions and more operations taking place? Oh, absolutely. So I think the best way to start for that is really understanding what is making up that 78% of commercial revenue that I mentioned before. So the easiest way to think about it is kind of in two main categories. There's there are things that enable space. So these are the classic things we think of, right? It's like satellites and rockets and ground stations, because we need the physical infrastructure to take advantage of satellites. Human Space Flight is part of that. So the suborbital flights that we're starting to see from Blue Origin and SpaceX and Virgin Galactic the insurance industry is also a main component of that interesting which a lot of people don't realize, but when you break it down, it's actually quite practical, because space is very expensive and assets are extremely expensive. So those classical kind of. Aspects of space make up 1/3 of that commercial revenue. Two thirds of that commercial revenue right now is made up of things that are enabled by space, primarily satellites. So it's things like telecommunications, broadband, precision, navigation and timing, which is actually the largest, because it's responsible for things like, you know, GPS and financial transactions and an accurate train station times. I mean, all, all of the things that we take for granted are this ubiquitous backbone because of space tech. So really, a bulk of the economy right now is this space to Earth market. It's utilizing space assets. It's utilizing the technology for either terrestrial applications or other industries to be able to benefit from it. The environment we're moving into, which you alluded to, is this space to space market, which truly, if we are going to unlock the space economy, you kind of have to take Earth out of the equation and be able to do things in space we've never been able to do before. And that's really where we're pushing. So currently, right now, if you look at things like ground transport and launch infrastructure and in space maneuvering and recovery systems, these are all aspects that are really, really critical, not only as a backbone to the space economy now, but this sort of like logistics chain extends beyond the Earth's surface and will act also as an anchor for things in space. And then the eventuality that we're moving into are things like in orbit, refueling, for example. So extending the life cycle of satellites, and if you don't have to actually pull them down, you can refuel them. This also extends a small spacecraft we're looking at things like, you know, debris removal, which is really critical, because if we want to continue to utilize space, we have to sort of clean it up, you know, where it is now, power delivery, cargo handling, crew mobility. So all of the like, really practical things that you think about on earth will need to extend there. Because if we are going to have, you know, space stations that are going to be servicing really precious payloads for research aspects, or if we are truly going to build this cislunar economy, which we are really pushing for, which is infrastructure and services between the Moon and Earth, we need to have these other things that allow us to not just send things from Earth, use them one time or two times in space and bring them back, but be able to kind of this, like holistic ecosystem in and of itself that is such a fascinating I could pull on 15 different threads with everything that you just said from the, I guess, from the logistics angle of it, you mentioned how these reusable rockets are really helping expedite a lot of these different missions. So in this, I guess in the earth base, it do you call like terrest terrestrial industrial applications? Yeah, terrestrial applications. So in that scenario, so the the semi truck is like the rocket, and so when the rocket gets up into space, are there currently, you know, warehouses and refueling stations, you mentioned debris removal. So we've talked previously about, you know, tracking that debris and, you know, trying to not in maintenance in space, are all of those different, I guess, key points already in space. Are we working on establishing that infrastructure? We're working on it so they they are in space in the aspect that there are a lot of companies taking on those really hard challenges that have done really tremendous demonstrations. So what's really interesting about where we are currently is, I kind of mentioned it before, about 2025 being a really interesting year, and I've been saying this over the past couple of months, but I really do think we're at this inflection point, because beyond us growing and well, it's not even the growth, as I mentioned, it's the operational cadence. So we are at a point now where things are now flying like we are. We are moving past the strategies and the tech dev timeline, and we are now getting things in space. We are testing them in space. We are accelerating them in space, but we're at a point where we need to close the business model, because this is the interesting point. So infrastructure is expensive. Every space or earth, it's expensive, right? And a lot of these companies, they need to be able to attract the kind of capital to go from demo to scale to then enable them to be these anchor points within low Earth orbit to then enable other industries to take advantage of it. And so one of the things you know that a lot of people in the ecosystem are now focusing on is, what are those like alternative mechanisms of capital, beyond venture because right now, there's a lot of venture capital, you know, flowing into space, space assets. And last year, in 2024 there was 26 Billion dollars of venture capital that went in, but venture alone cannot get the job done, primarily because a lot of the venture model is looking at quicker returns, right? So looking at more like three to five year returns, or five to seven year returns. With this, with these kind of plays, are not going to enable that, but they need to actually succeed in order for the economy and other industries to take advantage of it. And so looking at things like sovereign wealth funds and, you know, institutional banks and like family offices, like these players that understand the eventuality in the future that we are building and the economic return, but do not need to get some sort of ROI in three to five years. So that's that's one side of it. So the short answer is, yes, there are. They are now just looking to close the business case and to maneuver more broadly. One of the things that really needs to happen, though, on the other side, so beyond the capital, though, is that, as you can imagine, with any sort of infrastructure and logistics that exists on earth, there is a coordination effort. So you know, you mentioned things like cargo trucks and gas stations and these, things like these do not operate in silos, right? They are designed in a way that they enable the success in the other and that they're easy to to collaborate and to cooperate. When we talk about space, the need for standards and interoperability and really sustainability of these various companies is really critical. And so another aspects that's really being looked at beyond the technology. But how do you look at things like common docking interfaces or refueling standards or safety protocols? Right? Because the eventuality we're moving toward in low Earth orbit is it's not going to be an infrastructure that is owned and operated by one country and one company. It is completely coordinated and completely collaborative. And so all of those other mechanisms to make it successful are really critical, and that's where a lot of the industry is starting to point their attention to make sure that that is also there while the technology develops at the same time. That's so interesting because that was, I mean, that's pretty much how logistics got started. You know, different ports were established all over the world, and then it really wasn't until this this book, actually, Mark Levinson wrote this book called the box with a container was invented, and it standardized shipping all across the world, and, like, lifted, you know, numerous countries out of poverty in order to streamline logistical operations. So it's kind of crazy that we haven't I guess, maybe learned from that that innovation and applied it in space. But maybe there are people who are doing that right now, as as you mentioned with docking technology, there, there are, and the reason we haven't done it is we haven't needed to. I mean, so really, if you look at how the term like commercialization of space, so commercial space has been around since the 90s, especially with a lot of the telecommunications and broadband and all of that, that really is, as I mentioned, a critical backbone to what the space economy is now. But 2020 was really like an inflection point. And so we have the inflection point of 2025 but 2020 was really this catalyst for commercial space, because it was the first year that SpaceX flew a crewed mission on their Dragon capsule. And so people then started to realize that space was accessible, not just for billionaires or nation states, and that private citizens could engage and interact in ways that they probably had never really thought of before. And so in the collective imagination, people started to pay attention to space in a different way. I think that people are always fascinated by space. I mean, it's interesting, like, in my day job, I don't meet people often that are like, Oh, space isn't cool. Like, everyone thinks space is cool. It's just that everybody has an opinion of what space is, and generally you just think it's out of touch and out of reach, and that it does not encompass every background, skill set interest industry that is necessary for its growth. And that's why it's so fun to get that aha moment for people to realize like, oh, what I do actually is part of the space ecosystem. And it's like, yes, you just have to think about it in a different way. So after 2020 when it became more accessible, people started to pay attention more. And then a lot of these technologies that were then now looking at, okay, now, what can we do? And many of them were being built prior to that, but at least, like the funding and the focus and the interest was sort of catalyzed in a way that it could allow more growth, and that's when things really started to accelerate. And the idea of commercial space in the space economy, kind of became this more common, common topic, where before there were people talking about it, but people sort of were like, Yeah, you're the person in the corner that space is never going to make money outside of exploration and satellites. So it's a different mind shift. I think you said you mentioned it on one of your episodes. It's like the mythos of space and how people tend to maybe before 2020, They thought it was so far away, but maybe they don't realize that. You know, SpaceX is launching nearly every day missions up up into space. And I don't even my parents. I was explaining to them over the weekend, because we grew up in Florida, but it was one of those situations where you might have three launches a year, and then it quickly evolved to three launches a week, and now it's maybe three a day, or what we're I think the cadence is moving up to, Oh, yeah. So globally, right now, there's a launch about once every 34 hours. Wow, which, which is, which is mind blowing, right and, and in your right, like, I think that this mythical way that we talk about space, and we and we still do it, I mean, even to the point, and for good reason, I'll say this so space is always captured the collective imagination. And you know, when we first went to the moon, it was done with this optimism and enthusiasm, because what we were doing had, like, never been done before. I mean, truly, right. And so it was technologically improbable. We truly proved it to be possible, and then we built this industry around it. Where we are now is when we still talk about space as this, like special, mythical ecosystem. It really obscures the fact that goods and services are being created and sold on a daily basis, and that it is this marketplace. And so space, in and of itself, isn't the gamble that it once was, although we are still dealing with very difficult challenges. I mentioned this on probably the podcast you listened to recently about closing the business case for space. But when you talk to a lot of space founders, they will sometimes tell you that space isn't special, like the technology, engaging in those environments is the difficult part, right? But space, in and of itself, it's all the other things. It's the maneuverability, it's the policy, it's the coordination, it's a lot of that human stuff that sometimes makes it difficult not saying that the environment isn't, but it's not. It's not as tricky as it once was, right? And so people still think of it as the final frontier, and it absolutely is, but when you talk about it in that way, you forget that like there's a $570 billion economy that is actually producing economic return for countries and localities all over the world and people just forget about that and just think the exploration aspect. So for all of these launches that are taking place, what is the I guess the cargo on these launches Is it mostly satellites. So right now, yes. So last year, about 90% of all spacecraft launched into space was commercial, commercial, and the bulk of them were satellites. So a lot of the low Earth orbit constellations that you will see through, like, you know, SpaceX is Starlink, and then Amazon has the Kuiper project, and then there's one web that's the bulk of it, because really what they're trying to do now, satellites give us a lot of added benefits. So beyond the telecommunication aspect, and what it's doing actually, for connectivity and latency to a lot of areas that maybe weren't connected to the internet before, it's produced really tremendous results in other areas that you may not have realized. So I mentioned before, like the insurance industry, for example, is a huge component of the space economy. There is a subsection of the insurance industry called parametric insurance, which is really the insurance that extends to like disaster response and floods and fires. Well, satellites have allowed these insurance agencies to now insure things with such fidelity, because they now have clarity in terms of data and imagery, to actually be able to know blast zones right, or flood zones and how, and what the actual economic cost is going to be. And so it's completely transformed that side of it. It's also transformed a lot of other industries that you don't think of like the agriculture industry is actually highly dependent on satellite data. They use it now for more precision farming to be able to know how crop yields are going to perform with precipitation and potential climate issues over years. There's now a lot of farms and agricultural equipment that are now kind of attached to satellite connectivity, so they have more autonomous farming equipment. John Deere was actually kind of the first agriculture space company because they started to integrate satellite data. So it is pervasive in so many other industries. And so when people think about these spacecrafts being launched. It's not just for you and I to be able to talk on this zoom call. There's actually a lot of really practical applications that people use every day. And like you said, it's mostly about communications for right now, but imaging is another big part of it. We used to we had a guest on recently called inversion space. And. Are trying to build warehouses in space that could deliver you cargo within an hour of placing an order. So just like an Amazon, but they are going to be delivering it within an hour. It's mostly, you know, disaster relief, or, you know, maybe some hikers are stranded on a mountain. That's kind of the use cases right now. But I'm curious if there are, you know, outside of, maybe agriculture and, you know, in version space what they're doing. Are there any other, like, interesting use cases that you've seen? Oh, yeah, so not in the logistics space. But I think one of the areas that is really relevant and important when you talk about the utilization of space as a as an economic driver is really in, like the biotech and pharmaceutical areas. So a lot of, as I mentioned before, like research and manufacturing, is being done on the International Space Station currently, and it's going to continue, but they have done some really interesting things to accelerate drug delivery. So the conditions of space, not having gravity, with the presence of radiation and others, has really interesting properties for like protein crystal growth that is used in a lot of different mechanisms for precision manufacturing. For example, there was a company that was able to manufacture a retina up in space that has through nanotechnology and that has, like, the size and sophistication to actually fit on your eye, which you would never be able to do here. They're currently growing organs on chips as backup medical needs, because lack of gravity, again, allows you to do these really interesting things. They've accelerated an osteoporosis treatment is a perfect example. There was one that was accelerated in space and then brought down and actually fast tracked through the FDA. And so those applications not only have really critical use cases and important use cases here on Earth, but it's also a way for us to get things quicker, be able to accelerate technology and innovation, and it's also another way to sort of shore up a supply chain, because instead of sending things to other countries to potentially manufacture and develop, you can send things into space and bring it back down, potentially with a bit more fidelity and acceleration and innovative clarity that you might want. Why does the lack of gravity help with discovering some of these innovations? So I think it's because, especially well I can tell on the organ, on the organ aspect and the liver aspect, it's because it can grow more symmetrical because of those aspects. And so I don't necessarily know why. On the machining side, I can dig in and send you some sure on that. I just know that it does that. I just as you were talking about these experiments, I'm like, why are we doing them on earth? Like, wouldn't that be easier or but it sounds like, you know, maybe there are just some benefits to doing things in space where you don't have, maybe the gravity restrictions. Well, that's, that's exactly what it is. So there is, there are these types of things happening on Earth, and there is, you know, precision machining happening on Earth and additive manufacturing, but the conditions of space allow you just different yields, and so it is really opening up new avenues of what people can do and what they can create, and how it can bring back applications on Earth. There was another cool thing when it when I did my NASA tour, is when they were talking about growing plants in space and trying to figure out which vegetables, you know, will we be able to feed the people who are able to get up, and whether it's astronauts or space tourism, you mentioned with, you know, agricultural or maybe evolving that's happening in space. Is there other maybe aspects of feeding people that are in space that maybe we don't know about, maybe a startup that that's trying to tackle this. Yeah, so there's, there's a lot of companies that are looking at that, and a lot of the research is actually being led by NASA to figure out what this kind of crop development would look like. The interesting thing about it is that when we are looking toward these eventualities of sustained human presence, right in a in a lunar environment or elsewhere. We don't really have the kind of data for that. Really, the kind of data that we have is the data of the astronauts who have been on the International Space Station in the controlled environment for a very particular and limited amount of time. And so you know, as probably you know, and some of your listeners know that astronauts have to have very precise diets because of, you know, nutrient replacement, and also they have to exercise for a certain amount of time a day, because the lack of gravity can have degradation on the bones when you look at that in an extended, extended period. And also in an environment where we haven't really done that, a lot of the work is still speculative, but there are things that we know. So for example, you do know how your body in these environments performs with like drugs. Like, I was actually really surprised when I found out that, like, ask even aspirin. So if I take an aspirin here on Earth, and I take an aspirin and. It actually racks with your body differently. And so the the composition of things, the nutrient replacement, electrolytes. So there are companies that are looking at ways that you can kind of create strips to put on your tongue, you know, like, like high endurance performance athletes might use on rock climbing, similar things. So how do you do fluid replacement in your body when you're in these environments, and then also, what kind of nutrients can grow in these ecosystems? So what can actually grow on the moon? What kind of closed loop systems do you need to create? How does hydroponics play into it? How does Astro farming? I'm sure you've seen some of that vertical vertical farming as well. So there's a lot of people thinking through these scenarios, and there's been a lot of they call them analog missions. I don't know if you've heard of those, but they're, it's, it's essentially a concept across the world where people simulate environments that people might engage either in the Moon or Mars, and they might do one that's like on the side of a cave surrounded by water, right? Or they do them in deserts. But it's meant to gather research and kind of behavioral mechanisms of people, of how they engage. So there are a lot of people thinking through these ideas, and also what you would need to grow, what people would need to eat. The other aspect too is that how then bodies adapt. So if you think about the and we're getting kind of way far ahead, but if you think about future, sustained presence of humans, people that are born in these environments, they're over generations, are going to need different types of nutrients. And so how do you then prepare for that? Not that you necessarily can speculatively upfront, but know that you will need to probably adapt and adjust in a very different way. Yeah. I mean, I just imagine if aspirin affects you differently in orbit, I wonder. You know, as a woman, like being pregnant in space, like, what happens there, and, yeah, all of these different things that I guess you know none of us know until they try it out. Yeah, your body does all sorts of different things. Like, there's different weird fluid shifts upon upon launch and upon being in these environments. You know, bone degradation is a huge aspect, as I mentioned in the beginning. So one of the a lot of the biotech that's actually being developed around that is looking at ways that you can monitor, like muscle atrophy and and bone degradation, or overall, just kind of like physiological health, to be able to do more predictive and preventive medicine. And so there's a lot of really interesting applications around future suit design and the integration of artificial intelligence and and more sensor mechanisms to be able to look at overall health. The other side of that too, beyond just physical health, is also mental health, which is a huge aspect of future space that a lot of people don't think about yet, but a lot of those in the community are thinking about. Because when you are asking people to be in environments that are very unfamiliar to them for long sustained amounts of time, people are still people. And so being able to inject some sort of creature comforts or ways for them to feel more connected to earth or more connected to their family, or, you know, feel sunlight, right? Just just basic human needs. These people that are going to be doing this will obviously be very elite, because they will be trained and and chosen to do this, but humans still, at some point need to have some sort of connectivity to keep some sort of sanity. Yeah, I don't know if you've ever read the book about endurance. It's Shackleton's mission to Antarctica, and how I remember there was one part in the book where they had been stranded in Antarctica for, at that point, I think, at least a year, and some strong storms blew in a stick and like some seaweed. And the way that the crew documented reacting to taking the stick and holding it and burning it was almost it felt like home. And so I the parallels between space and then the, you know, I guess the environment of Antarctica, or lack thereof. I wonder how humans are going to be able to adapt to not having those normal human interactions, sitting in front of the sun, smelling a bonfire, things like that. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question, because one of the things when I talk about sort of the evolution of the space economy and what's really critical to grow and sustain it. So as we mentioned before, like we're really looking at this low Earth orbit cislunar economy now, and a lot of that is really predicated on reusable launch right, being able to reduce access and cost to for people to take advantage the infrastructure, taking the earth out of the equation. But when you look at these long, endurance, sustained missions, like when we talk about Mars, when we talk about this future end state, it takes seven months to get there. So you have people on a ship for presumably seven months that, and they're obviously tasks and things they need to do, but you're still on a ship for seven months, and. You know, people need to have some sort of outlet. There always needs to be a community. There always needs to be a human aspect. And so when you start to then come into more of that creature comfort, mental health aspect, even the environments that you know they will be living in, they're obviously like multiple schools of camp. When you look at Mars habitats, is it underground? Is it in domes, like you saw on the Martian. I mean, there's there's pluses and benefits to both, but being able to keep people sane and healthy, I think, is one of the most critical aspects, because we need these humans to also help make sure there is mission success. And so that's a really big aspect. The good thing is that we are now hitting a point where technologically, we have made advancements in things like artificial intelligence, not just AI, but AR and VR technology, right? And being able to simulate environments for humans that we probably will take with us in those engagements, but it is a really critical component that you sort of take for granted, everything that's around us here that centers us. Yeah. I mean, if you spend a few days with your family over the holidays, sometimes you can't wait to get out of there. It's like, I would imagine that the the chemistry within these crews is just going, is going to be just as important as you know, maybe the the intelligence and the mission itself, because otherwise, if they don't get along, then there's not so many good things that could happen from that. But on, on the flip side, I want to take it back to, you know, sort of the entrepreneurial role of folks who are investing in space. I think you with Space Foundation, you have space path, you have space edge, and then you also have the Space Symposium. Can you kind of tell us what each of those programs are, and then, sort of the overall goals with each of those absolutely so Space Foundation as an organization is a 41 year old nonprofit that's headquartered in Colorado Springs, but we also have a Washington DC office that's where myself and my team and some other departments are. And really what we do as an organization is we say that we advance the global space ecosystem. And so when you actually break that down, we, in terms of our programs and services, really touch everything from elementary to emeritus. So a quick sort of highlight of where we started and where we're going. Most people know us for our annual Space Symposium, which you mentioned, which we just had our 40th in Colorado Springs this past April. And that really does bring together the global space community. So everyone from national security space, civil space, commercial space, both domestic and international, and we, this past year, had just over 11,500 people. So I always say it's a party with like 11,000 plus of your favorite space friends, we had a bunch of international entities join us. We do every year, heads of agencies. And so it's really a place where all of the different space conversations happen and how they mix. Because what's interesting about the future of space is that national security endeavor, endeavors civil space, which is like NASA and other agencies and commercial they all intertwine and mix in some capacity, because, like dual use technologies and, you know, some companies have multiple customers, so that's been our anchor flagship for a very long time. On the other side of the house, we do a lot of K through 12 education and workforce development, because we do believe that space begins in the classroom. If we are pushing toward this eventuality where we are going to have, you know, sustained presence of people, and we're going to have all these new jobs and infrastructure, we need people to not self select out early because they don't think it's part of their career growth. And so we do a lot of space in the community outreach. We do things like teacher liaisons, where we train teachers around the world on specific space curriculum. And then one of our current initiatives is called swift and it's focused on workforce development, and so it's making sure that we close the critical skills gap that a lot of companies are finding to be able to retain and attract and train kind of the next generation skilled workers. A lot of my work, what it does and the programs, focuses on bringing the next generation of companies and capabilities to space. So we focus a lot on the emerging countries, the emerging companies. We work a lot with economic development commissions in different states to get them to understand how their industries are relevant to space. And we create programs around it, so like one of them that you mentioned, space path, it's a one day virtual boot camp that's happening August 16. And what it is is for companies or people that want to fully understand, like really, what the space economy is, but start to create a strategy around it. And so whether it's a company that is interested in space, or could potentially already be in space, but wants to understand how to better scale, how to better integrate that, this is really the program for them. It's kind of like a like an accelerator boot camp. On steroids. Right within that, that component, what we also do are space business incubators and accelerators. That's what you mentioned, the space edge and some others, where we put together either 468, or 12 week programs really designed to help companies understand where they fit and create a strategy for the future of space. What's nice about those is all all sort of accelerators and programs have an entrepreneurial flair, but we really teach people about the business of space. And so really understanding how our market's going to evolve, how our industry is relevant. How is your company relevant? How is it going to scale? And so at the end of that, they really get an understanding of what to do, how to do it, and when they can start making money and insert into the future. So I guess what? What does maybe, like a high level process look like if I'm an entrepreneur and I want to start a space company, Is it as simple as, like, I have an idea, and I just need to go find, you know, make the the business case to, uh, an investor. So it it used to be, and it can be. So I'll part of the, part of the challenge and opportunity right now. I'll say that. So, as I mentioned early on, there's, there's never been more interest, activity, engagement, opportunity ever. However, there is a bit of heartburn in the ecosystem right now because of the SPAC boom and bust that happened in 2021 all the free money. Yeah, so just a quick primer for the listeners, if you don't know what I'm talking about. As I mentioned, 2020 was this kind of critical year because people realized that space was accessible. Virgin Galactic went public via SPAC, a special purpose acquisition company that essentially allows people to raise capital without having a tech right? So a lot of like PowerPoint companies were able to go public and raise capital like none of them panned out. So so what, what happened was Rocket Lab was really kind of the only company that saw its panned out in valuations and so without the companies actually getting any sort of return or growth beyond that, what it really did, in many ways, is kind of call into question the integrity of the space ecosystem altogether, and the viability of the capabilities. So we started to see private capital start to shrink and start to go more toward classic things, toward like hardware and software and more infrastructure plays like ground stations that you need for satellites and not take some of those more riskier bets. It is now recovering, which is good. So we are now seeing more capital return to the market, primarily, as I mentioned before, because things are flying spaces a lot more visible now in terms of these capabilities, but what it means for companies is that they need to be a lot more savvy, as opposed to, I just have an idea, they need to actually show how they're going to make money, or how they will eventually fit into the ecosystem and give some sort of economic return. So not all companies need to be able to show this three to five year return, but at least have a plan on how you're going to build into this infrastructure, or eventuality or part of the supply chain. So it just, it just takes a bit more pragmatism in terms of the business growth and not just the excitement of what the community and ecosystem brings to bear. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. Like, if the free money is done. Maybe it shouldn't have have been there in the first place. You can make that. I guess that argument as well in all industries, not not just space. But I am curious how this, how this industry becomes a little bit more business savvy, and how they're making those cases once they once, maybe an entrepreneur or startup has an idea, what does the sort of those next steps look like? Because I've heard it's as easy, like, if you want to get on a SpaceX launch, I mean, it is, they're booking, like, a year and a half in advance, I believe. But is, is it really as simple as, just like, booking a flight on their website? Because that's what I I've heard. I think if the So, I don't know the full answer to that, but I do know that SpaceX has really made the process easy for people to be able to take advantage of their their flights, right, and put different payloads in space, because you know that the types of things that are going to be going up is everything from potentially like a company's idea to a research payload from an academic institution. And so the ability to give access to a lot of different people needed to be streamlined in a particular way. I will say that sort of the next steps. So it's, it's a it's a couple of things, I think that ultimately, given the the pace and the scale and just the amount of excitement around the industry, one, you need to start engaging with people in the industry. The one thing I will say, though about space and why I really love this community, is everybody loves what they do, and everybody wants to talk about what they do, because we are building this future that is extremely exciting, and so it's not a hard industry to start making friends with. So if you go to a space. Conference, or you start engaging on webinars, online, or even LinkedIn, is like one of my favorite places, because you can get into, like, really interesting conversations, and people will always respond because they love the topic. So I think for companies, they need to start there. They need to start engaging with the players and getting diverse perspectives. Because part of the biggest, I think misnomer with space is if you build it, they will come that is not true. And the other piece too is that sometimes a lot of founders need to get out of the echo chamber of everybody saying, this is such a really cool idea, and you're going to be the next Elon Musk and engage with other aspects of the industry that are just as critical to its growth, that might give them alternative views to think about it. So I think the connectivity piece is critical. I think also start to understand where you want to fit. So there is now so much value chain, and there are so many different aspects that you can connect to, right? Do you want to be a component, a component supplier? Do you want to be a third party supplier of space data to an ecosystem or an industry here on Earth? Do you want to do payloads in space and accelerate some sort of research for some other industry on Earth? Do you want to be an architect for the cislunar infrastructure? Right? Do you want to offer additive manufacturing? There is like so much that can be done that understanding more clearly where you want to fit will also then inform how you fit. Because do you then become a supplier to A prime that may have that contract? Do you offer independent services? Do you go after a government contract? So there's lots of different ways, but you need to actually understand, like, what specifically you want to do, and not just say, like cislunar, because that is 10,000 different things. So from a I guess, outside of getting the funding and then obviously the environment of space, what maybe is the most challenging aspect of creating a startup in this industry. So it's really the it's the human side. I would say that, you know, you made the analogy earlier, talking about car cargo trucks, right? And like a lot of this. So sometimes people think that certain aspects are already dominated and monopolized by a certain company. I mean, certainly people think that about SpaceX. But if you think about the future of space and all of the different missions, like you mentioned, that company that you talk to that wants to actually like transport cargo, we need all sorts of different rockets for all sorts of different missions. You need rockets that are going to put people up there. You need rockets that are going to put small satellites. You need cargos that are going to be trained. Are going to be transportation type entities. And so there are a lot of different opportunities and offerings for different types of aspects. So I am that is that is a good, a good problem to have. I think one of the challenges, though, for companies is the understanding that certain areas are convincing people that it might not be a completely dominated aspect, and that's just launch. I mean, launch is a is a very different conversation, but part of the other challenge for some of these companies is just starting and getting people to trust you. And so when you look into this environment, as I mentioned, where everything is going to be integrated and coordinated, you have to trust the company, and you have to trust the system. And so it is then come back to those human relationships, right? And so being able to get people to understand your vision, but also you as people, and start to build those sort of company relationships is really critical. And then the other piece that is going to hamper, I think, a lot of the the ecosystem, if we don't solve it pretty quickly, is just around the regular the regulation aspect of it. So we are in an environment now, you know, we've been we're operating in space like we've never operated before. And there are not laws that extend to property rights in space. There are really no regulatory frameworks for how commercial companies are going to be engaging when they're potentially mining on the moon. And so we also need to make sure that we as a as a country, the United States, but also globally, kind of look at the existing regulatory frameworks and potentially update ones that are antiquated, to actually allow the ecosystem and the innovation to evolve at the pace and scale that it needs to. Because for some of these young companies, you know, it may be really difficult for them to get a slot in orbit right. They may not be able to get on a ride share, they may not be able to get the right licenses to be able to conduct what they need to do, and so being able to allow the agility of the of the ecosystem to adapt to like the modern needs, is really one of those critical aspects, and that has nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with kind of the policy in the system around it. Yeah, because there's no, from what I understand, there's no governing. Body in space. It's just kind of loose agreements between countries on earth that kind of agree to a certain set of rules. But they can they really be enforced? Yeah, so that that, honestly, is the one of the primary conversations that is happening now because of how engagement is accelerating, because traditionally, it was nationalistic, right? It was, it was companies that would be doing things on behalf of NASA or or the European Space Agency or elsewhere. And that is still going to exist, but, yeah, we are now going to create an eventuality where there may be a commercial company that is engaging outside of the government. We've already proved it with the moon. There have been commercial companies that have landed on the moon, um two that are united states based so intuitive machines, and Firefly aerospace and so that is really accelerating the pace of these conversations and the necessity. What we have right now are there's the Outer Space Treaty, which was developed in 1969 ratified in 1972 but to your point, that doesn't extend to property rights or sort of that other sort of ownership. And then the framework that we are working on now is the Artemis accords. That is, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but essentially it, it's essentially an international doctrine that countries can sign on to that essentially establish norms of engagement, or at least people signal that these are the norms of engagement. I think as of a couple weeks ago, there were 55 signatories there. There may be more, but again, that's a non binding treaty, so it's an indication that you want to be allies and that you will work in this way. But there's no enforcement mechanism, and so a lot of those aspects around space, law and regulation and the policy around those are butting on the fringes, because that really is a critical component, because economically, we can justify the return, technologically, we can build it. We can try to attract the capital. But if you don't have those other levers to enable its success. It can really stall, yeah, because I think it was some I don't know if it was like the Russian government or maybe a Russian company, but they exploded one of their satellites in space a couple of years ago, and all of that debris went into all of these different orbital fields, and that obviously impacts a bunch of countries, a bunch of companies, and so for situations like that, you kind of want some checks and balances, I would imagine, yeah, and that is, that is actually one of the examples in particular that a lot of people use about just kind of like secondary and tertiary effects of things, and then how that also plays beyond commercial, but potentially national security threats or or other aspects. And so the domain is just very interesting at the moment in terms of how we're going to move forward collectively. I did want to pull on the on the string for a little bit of the manufacturing side of things, because I would imagine that if we can manufacture and we could make goods in space, then that would reduce the amount of cargo transports that we would need for maybe some critical supplies. One a reader submitted a question for this episode, and he was talking about asteroid mining, and what do they see as a bigger potential market lassoing asteroids and tugging them back to Earth or zero. G manufacturing was the reader submitted question. I'm not sure if you could answer that, but would love to hear your insight. So yes, I can answer it, maybe not as fully as they would like, but I could give, I could give an example. So asteroid mining is one of those topics that comes up a lot because it is one that excites people, primarily because there have been asteroids that have been identified that, have, you know, more platinum than exists on earth, just on one asteroid. And so the economic gain and the potentiality of what that could bring to bear is really exciting for people. The challenge right now is that there is no business case or market for it. What I mean by that is that in order to actually conduct the mission, and you know, dock on the asteroid, mine the Platinum, bring it back down, the yield that you can actually get is is much less than the cost of the mission. And so it doesn't the Delta doesn't make business sense yet. That is where people are going, but it is one of those examples that a lot of investors will say, I'm not investing in that because it's not a viable, practical aspect right now. What is viable, though, for asteroid mining, and where a lot of the industry is looking at, for that space to space market, which you're talking about, is looking at things like water and and rare minerals and other critical elements that can be used in situ for other aspects. And so if we are going to look at lunar infrastructure and lunar architecture, we need to not just be shipping water up from Earth, right? I mean, that's very expensive, it's very cumbersome, and that that can stall things. So looking at ways to extract water from potential asteroids, and looking at ways to get minerals or other aspects that then can be manufactured through more precision manufacturing authority manufacturing for infrastructure and architecture aspects, there is, is one that they're looking at. And there are companies focused on, what about on the I guess the we've talked about it a couple times, of the space tourism aspect, Blue Origin just, just had their, you know, their their flight that went viral all over social media for a variety of reasons. I am curious as to, are we How far away is a future where regular people can just book a flight and go into space, yeah. So that was the whole point of those flights, right? So there's a couple of points for suborbital, and I'm a big proponent of it, because I think, for a couple of reasons, you need to make people feel part of the space story, as we mentioned. You know, people, it's very mythical to folks, and it's very out of touch. But space does affect us, and people will be able to take advantage of it. So anytime you send humans up into space and return them safely, that is a technological feat that needs to be celebrated. And so I really applaud them in their efforts, and by doing more and more of these flights, that is eventually going to drive the cost down, because you are going to be able to prove technology with more fidelity, close more business cases, give more access. And so I could see an eventuality where in the next five to 10 years, it is, it is much cheaper for folks to access it. I know there are a lot of companies that are focused on that. There's also some companies. I don't know if you've seen the balloons, so there's some companies, and I'm blanking on the name, but they it's almost like a it's a space tourism aspect, but it takes you right to the edge on this, like souped up hot air balloon. Oh, wow. People want to do um, so that is another aspect. What I will say about the suborbital flights, though, and why it it is also really critical, is that there are experimentation and other aspects that are done on these flights. And so people, and I know they did this on the the Blue Origin flight, but there were sensors worn and other other types of aspects tested that you don't necessarily have that kind of testing, and in the 5g that you pull up to get there right, or in the micro gravity, and so also what it does to accelerate just basic science and discovery and some of these other innovations that are going to be really critical for future human missions. It's a really critical component. And so I think that having people pay attention to them, getting excited about them, not just from the science aspect, but feeling part of space and there will be, there will be a time when, when everyone will be able to take advantage of it, or hope, or hopefully, most hopefully, in my lifetime, it is definitely a goal and a dream that I didn't think would actually be attainable. But if you're saying within the next five or 10 years, you know, maybe that is really attainable for a lot of folks, and it's something to look forward to and be passionate about, yeah, because, I mean, I don't think most folks realize that they've already flown. Blue Origin has already flown another human mission since that flight. Oh, wow. They're set to launch another one, I think, this week. And so the cadence now of when they're flying these with the individuals on board is accelerating as well, which is really exciting. Wow. So I guess is that maybe, like, Blue Origin's main focus right now is, like it's more of the the subordable Tourism style flights, that's a component. So they have a lot of different aspects. They flew earlier this January. They did a test flight of their new Glenn rocket, which is a, which is a heavy, a heavy rocket. So essentially, it could be a competitor to starship. They also have a contract for a lunar lander, and so they are very much involved in kind of the moon ecosystem, and so it is a component of one but they have a lot of really interesting projects and products that they're working on. How realistic is it for us to have a base on the moon and maybe the next 10 years. I think it's very realistic. So it does, though, take, as we mentioned earlier, the coordination of all of the things to enable the the the infrastructure. So when you look at the this, individualized components, a lot of these technologies are kind of at a critical mass, right? And they are, they are ready to be scaled. They just need the capital or some sort of other integration infusion to be able to do that. It's the coordination of it. And so I think that if you look at the future growth, you know, we are as a nation, we're planning to go back to the moon. I don't know if 2026 is going to stick, but at least sometime within the next couple of years to have people back on the moon. They're already, you know, like autonomous flyers, as I mentioned, that are going there. And so I could see very easily in the next 10 years. You. If we're able to coordinate everything in a concentrated way, that it could be an eventuality. Now, last few questions here, just more from like, I guess, like the logistics industry standpoint. I'm sure anybody I talk to that works in this industry, they are, they are fascinated by space as well, but they don't. They didn't know it was this approachable. I didn't think it was this approachable, until this we had this conversation. I you know, it's kind of a thing in, you know, an aspirational thing. So for folks who may be listening that are working in logistics, what kind of jobs do you think are going to be like logistics related or transferable to the space economy? You're talking about individual jobs and not capabilities, right? Or technologies, maybe both, because I maybe some capabilities for professionals here on Earth would apply, and maybe they're, they're industry transferable, because I think I've heard you talk about, you know, we're, we need you know marketing, and we need you know messaging, and you know, that's what stuck with me, but I know that there's other roles, project management, things like that, that all need to be done for space as well. Oh, completely. So the when people start to pull back the onion and realize what this future looks like, I really do believe that every background, interest and skill set fits. It's just finding how it fits. I would say that some of the ones that come to mind, particularly on the logistics side, that are going to be really critical, but also really transferable in the future, is understanding, like the OP the interoperability, and also like operation side of lots of different machinery, right? So think about like how somebody manages a port in terms of things coming in and out and making sure that there aren't collisions, right? And being able to tag things. The same thing is going to be necessary there when you have this sort of infrastructure on the lunar surface, but also when you look at a lot of the payloads that are going in and out of these space stations, right? So being able to understand how that all plays together. Another really critical thing though, which I think that a lot of the logistics community is already sort of leading in, is this sort of machine human symbiosis, particularly when it comes to the integration of artificial intelligence. I am not a logistics expert by any means, but I can speculate that it is probably being used, you know, not just like I said, for like Port management, but also for tracking, routes and other aspects AI, is going to play such a critical role in the future of the space economy in a lot of different ways that I think that the people that know how to utilize it, know how to integrate with it, know how to capitalize on its operational ability, is a really it's going to be a common occurrence and a critical thing to know, because I can give you an example. So when we talked about the manufacturing side of it. Artificial Intelligence is already being used to keep up with this the scale of satellite demand, and so a lot of manufacturing facilities are now utilizing artificial intelligence to help design, you know, manufacture and develop their satellites. A lot of artificial intelligence will be used on these future missions, not just for planning, but also for coordination of all the different autonomous vehicles to kind of integrate together. And so that sort of skill set is a really interesting one. I know it's definitely one that's being taught at schools because kids are growing up with this technology. But if there are professionals that already know how to harbor the genius or the the effectiveness, rather, of artificial intelligence into their daily jobs, I think is would be a huge benefit. Yeah, there was that. Going back to that gentleman that I spoke with at NASA, he talked about how he and his team went to an air cargo conference in order to learn how to more efficiently pack their cargo in the shuttle. So they're learning from other logistics pros. If you're on, you know, regular conferences that a lot of this audience goes to, but they're learning from them in order to apply those learnings in space, which I think is just fascinating. Oh, yeah. And even on that thread that just made me think of something else. If you think about putting things in space, every ounce matters. So understanding how to potentially miniaturize, or, like you said, pack or capitalize on space available for the optimal output that you want on the back end is something that is going to be really critical. So it really is kind of just a, I would say, like kind of a creative leap to think about how these entities might come together, but if we do or not it, but when we do have lunar infrastructure, it's going to be really no different than infrastructure here and how it engages, right? So let's last I know I said last couple questions, a few questions ago. Last, last couple questions. For real. Are there any sort of trends? That are going on within space, any businesses that we should be paying attention to before they kind of hit the mainstream? That's a good question. I would say. So, from like, an interesting capabilities point, yeah, so one of the ones that has come come around a lot recently, which I find really interesting, is data centers in space. Oh, wow. And so it's, it's, it's an answer to a couple of things. So it's, it's the ability to also maintain critical communications, right? Also keep up with the demand of the amount of satellites and the power that they demand in terms of latency and others to be able latency and other capabilities to bring back down to earth. But the other reason that they're putting them in space is that a lot of the data centers, or at least what I've read is a lot of the data centers on Earth are there's they're sort of out growing the space that they have, and also they're really vulnerable to attacks. And so if you think about this super connected world that we are moving into, and particularly, everything is connected now ground and space and everything in between, when you move it up into space. It's not as vulnerable to things like cyber attacks and, you know, grid, grid shutdowns and other aspects. And so that is an area that is increasingly gaining more traction, a security aspect, from a utilization demand, but then also from a kind of closed loop communication ability. And that's that's one that I think is really interesting to watch. The other piece too, that is, you know, really apropos to your readers is really this portfolio that I call isams, or I don't call it that. It's called ISAM it's the in space service, assembly and manufacturing, and that is that low Earth orbit integrated architecture of the refueling depots, the robotic repair arms, the man the, you know, the manufacturing in space, a lot of the recycling endeavors, that is one of the aspects that is extremely critical to grow and scale, as I've mentioned. But also a lot of those companies are really visible, like orbit fab, is doing gas stations in space. Astro scale is looking at sustainability at the forefront, but they are. They recently did this mission where they got really close to a piece of space debris and were able to survey it with like, really impressive resolution. And the next goal is to capture it. And so that portfolio is really timely, really important, and one that's really going to change the game when the whole ISAM chain really comes to conclusion. Yeah. I mean, it just feels like, you know, this is very reminiscent of, you know, for a lot of Americans that could be listening the western expansion and, you know, building the railroad tracks in order to get to and from a little bit faster and a little bit more efficient. It's kind of what we're doing right now. We're building those gas stations. We're building, you know, those maintenance shops, and you know, it's all taking place like right now in space. And I don't think that that most people are aware of that. So Kelly, this has been an amazing conversation. Is there anything that you feel is important to mention that we haven't already talked about? The only thing that comes to mind is just a response to just what you said is that is a perfect analogy to use, and I think that the best way to use it is, if you think about that Western expanse, and especially the gold rush, the people that made a bulk of the money, it wasn't necessarily the ones like looking for the gold, it was the people selling the picks and shovels. And so when you think about this supply chain aspect, right? It's all of those other aspects that are really critical to its growth, and that's where a lot of the opportunity lies, is just understanding where that insertion is, that's that's a perfect mic drop moment for this conversation. Kelly, thank you so much. Where Can folks follow you follow more of the work of Space Foundation, all that good stuff. Yeah, so our website is spacefoundation.org, and you can find all the good stuff that the organization is up to. I'm very active on LinkedIn. If anyone also wants to follow me on LinkedIn, it's just Kelly. Kita sogborne, happy to engage, especially for those companies that are trying to start the conversation? Please reach out. Yeah, absolutely. We will put all of those links in the show notes, just to make it easy for folks. But this is another fantastic conversation. So Kelly, we'll have to have you back on to talk about how these advancements are improving. Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of everything is logistics, where we talk all things supply chain. For the thinkers in freight, if you liked this episode, there's plenty more where that came from. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss a conversation. The show is also available in video format over on YouTube, just by searching everything is logistics. Logs. And if you're working in freight logistics or supply chain marketing, check out my company, digital dispatch. We help you build smarter websites and marketing systems that actually drive results, not just vanity metrics. Additionally, if you're trying to find the right freight tech tools or partners without getting buried in buzzwords, head on over to cargorex.io where we're building the largest database of logistics services and solutions. All the links you need are in the show notes. I'll catch you in the Next episode and go Jags you.
