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It's the largest prize pirates have ever taken. It includes gold, silver, and jewels. Each man walks away with about 65 years of a sailor's pay from one ship from one pool. And so, in today's wages, that's around $4 million per pirate of what they got off of this one ship. let's go ahead and welcome everybody into another episode of Everything is Logistics, a podcast for the thinkers and freight. We are proudly presented by SPI Logistics. I am your host, Blythe Milligan, joined alongside with Grace Sharkey. And we are back with another edition of. Freight friends, but this time we are doing a spooky supply chain edition. About a year ago, we did a similar sort of Halloween version where we dressed up in costumes. But this year, we're going to do spooky supply chain as the major theme for this episode. So, for some of the regular stories you hear from us, we're going to table that for an episode later on in the year. Maybe do some what of like a. I haven't even asked you if you wanted to do this yet. So consider this me I'll asking do it. you. But sometime in December, I think we should do like a year in review recap, kind of preview the upcoming year. Those are some of my favorite episodes to do with you because you're on the ground, you're on the scene, you talk to so many different people. And so that's just a good opportunity to do a show like that. But for this one, we're going to be talking spooky supply chain, and we're going to have five stories that have happened over the course of history in order to segue into what has happened from a cargo crime, a freight fraud perception over the course of thousands of years. And then how that kind of lands us into the modern day movement of where we find ourselves in trying to fight against cargo crime, freight fraud. Those terms are kind of synonymous. But this is going to be, I don't know, it feels weird to call cargo crime like a fun one, but I think enough history has passed or enough time has passed that we Yeah. can talk about some of these stories from an interesting lens. Maybe not necessarily fun for the people who were a part of these stories. So, all that to say, Grace, welcome back. I'm excited to be here. You know me, I'm a big ghosty, spooky person. This is my time of the year to shine. I'm going to be in Mexico for the Day of the Dead celebration of Oh, my favorite my holidays. gosh. Yeah, so I'm ready for this. This episode, it's this actually, with all the travel I'm doing, might be like the one way I get to celebrate this holiday outside of some spooky things I'm doing over the next week or so. But I'm excited to be here and ask me to dress up. I'll show up. Hell yeah. So give us a little. I want to talk about Mexico in just a minute, but give us a little bit of glimpse of what the costume is representing today. Because Yeah, the hat looks so a little familiar. yeah, the hat RIP does look familiar. convoy. Yeah, yeah, RIP combo. Actually, it's so funny. I almost made that one of my ghost stories because I found a bunch of convoy hats. No, so this I actually got at a Microsoft Dynamics conference that I just attended. I figured I'd be a little rodeo princess, get my cowboy Carter merch on, got all the fun. Things and uh, and I it's funny because I realized you did tell me what you're gonna dress up as, but I when I put this hat on, I thought Blythe's gonna just make me feel terrible because she has a real cowboy hat, and then you popped off, and I was like, Oh no. It's happening, my worst nightmare. So, yeah, I'm the cowboy pr I'm this rodeo princess who's over here just trying to make it through. And you look like you're gonna you and the gang's gonna take over a bank. That's That's what you right. look like. We are strapped up and ready to go. I got these suspenders, which is really, they grip. Let me tell you, I could not adjust the length of these things. So my pants are running up pretty high right now that you can't see. But I joked about this because. Before we started recording, and actually, I can't even remember if I talked about this already on air or not, because we usually talk for about an hour before we start recording. A little bit of behind-the-scenes scoops for y'all. But I have a CargoRex, cargo crime working title guide coming out in the first week of November. And I recorded six interviews while I was at IANA. So the Intermodal Expo. Out in Long Beach, incredible time. But I remember talking to Anne Reinke, who is an executive director, I believe is her title for IANA and formerly at TIA. If you know of, you know, if you followed Anne Reinke at all, but I told her, I was asking her about, sort of cargo crime when it comes to freight. And between her and Kristy Knichel, who also owns a logistics company. They said that intermodal cargo crime is kind of rare compared to other modes of transportation. And that's where I kind of got into like the not a conversation around well, how did trains even get robbed? And so we're going to get into one of those stories about how train robberies first really got started. Because I think for a lot of us, we kind of think of like, The rail car just being opened and a bunch of boxes kind of being scattered around. That was the imagery from around COVID War times. But yeah, basically, you know, that is what my costume is: is that I'm a trained robber bandit. And so I'm pretty pumped that, you know, we got someone else on the episode as well. With the just, you know, you won't be able to blend in as well. That's the Yeah, only thing no, yeah, exactly. Can you imagine if you who are did running it? across I don't know. the Midwest She had a crown. on a horse, Yeah, exactly. might be a little challenging Yeah, 100%. But she looks cute doing it, you know. exactly if we're gonna get caught. Oh no. Exactly, no. But regardless, you also just mentioned, and I, anybody who follows you on Instagram also knows that you have an affinity for this time of the year, especially Yeah. around spooky supply chain, that you go to places that I want no business going to. Tell us a little bit about your ghost adventures staying in haunted houses. It's so funny because, you know, Blythe was so kind to invite me to her bachelorette party. And I've told Blythe numerous times if I ever get married, like, my bachelorette party is gonna like, I'm gonna force like. 15 women to like go ghost hunting. And it's Another like, one, like, oh no, like yes. But no, so I, I've always been into like spooky stuff since I was a kid. And I've, I have a group of friends. There are people, normal people living amongst you all out there that do this that. Normal. Yeah, that go to places and actually, well, listen, I'm gonna talk to everyone in this audience like I would talk to these normal people as well. Where we do scientific research for all those listening, both roll your eyes. Where we do scientific research to see if potentially there's paranormal activity happening. Again, paranormal for anyone is anything that's outside of normal. So if things are behaving in a certain way, I'm not like, for example, I say that because UFOs, aliens could also, they could be considered paranormal. It's not just paranormal equals ghost, anything outside of the norm, right? And we do that too, you know. We try to figure out: is this an alien or is this ghost? This is where I lose blithe even more. But no, it is really fun. And it's funny, so quite recently, actually, I made my way to Omaha to travel to a middle of nowhere home that used to be a retirement center, actually closed in the early 2000s. It's not even that old technically. And we got to stay at it's called Melvern Manor. About four of us got to stay in, I'd say, probably about a four thousand square foot facility by ourselves. And I'm talking from like 6 p.m. to like noon the next day sleeping there was very difficult. At some point we had to turn we ended up turning on at like two o'clock in the morning. King of Queens, because we just had to like stop hearing doors opening and closing and footsteps. Like, we just couldn't sleep because we were hearing Ah. all of the movement and stuff and throughout the house. But, and it's funny, like, you know, we use EMF readers, we take recordings, listen to those back, we do something called the Estes method, which is like. A whole thing. It was actually developed at the Stanley. If you guys know any of the like the shiny lore, like it was invented there. And yeah, we, you know, I will say this too. I've been to places before that are completely dead. Nothing's happening. I've been to places before that I thought would be dead and have been super interactive. For example, there's a A haunted inn here in Michigan near my aunt's cottage that I took my nieces to just as kind of like a joke, so they could like just play around with equipment and like see kind of like what all this stuff's about. And it turned on me and actually was probably one of the most active locations I've ever been to. Like, I had to tell my nieces, girls, this doesn't happen everywhere. normally, like, You don't get activity for it, could be hours, right? Until something happens. And that was like, and I won't get into it, but What I think activity there's. Yeah, okay, good. Good question. Great question. So, activity could be anything from just like hearing footsteps, talking noises, or oftentimes. I mean, that's like where you really start to have fun. Oftentimes, it's when we're using our equipment, things will happen. So, for example, we use flashlights, turning the flashlights on and off. The entities will sometimes do that. We'll have EMF readers where those go off. There's a spike in electromagnetic fields around the area. And then, Just like a science. I keep using the word science, and they're like, no, Blythe. So I died inside. Just like you would science, like you get some activity, right? Let's say you get a positive, then you need to redo that same experiment or do other experiments to back up that that same thing is happening, right? And I will say. I'm not going to lie, I've gone to paranormal conventions, things like that. There are two types of us out there. I'm going to acknowledge this. There are people that hear a pin drop in the night and they're like, it's Aunt Gladys. I know it's her. I'm not one of those people. Like, I do try to be like, No, that probably was a tree. No, that probably was a car driving by. You know, we my group of ghoul friends, I like to call them, we are very like, no, that wasn't a ghost. So, like, when things do happen, it does get a little weird. one of another thing that we use is like, and there's a couple places where I've gotten a lot of activities with these, it's like cat balls. You get like the cat ball toys, you know, the ones that like light up when they move. Yeah. So you can put them in rooms. And if they start moving by themselves, right, they'll light up. And then you can, you'll know like right away something's happening. Yeah, there's, I have a whole bag life now. I have a whole bag of equipment. Like the equipment situation has skyrocketed over the last year and a half. And I'm actually going to be going to a location here on Friday in Holland as well. So Now, have you ever experienced something that has truly scared you? that's a really great question. So I have been fortunate enough so far in my life to avoid, to avoid. What I would call a more sinister type of entity, like a more demonic. I haven't really visited yet, like a prison or jail, like where the energy has all been very negative. And so, because the way I look at it is I look at it as energy, right? Like a lot of these hospitals, these places that people went to died at, a lot of like just that fear. Builds up and sometimes creates these entities. There's a place called Waverly Hill Sanatorium I've been to probably over eight times now. And there was a period where. A negative entity was in that location, but most of the people that would investigate there actually thought that was it was brought in from people wanting to see negative things, like just so many people wanting to experience negativity that it kind of created this, like kind of this negative aura that would roam around the property. But the people there have always been nice. And Topic so. Have I ever experienced something where I'm like, I need to get out of here? Once, potentially, at a museum in Las Vegas, there's, I won't get into it too much, but there was a moment where a possessed doll had said something to me in the voice of someone I was very close to who passed away. And I, yeah, I and I will say, in that moment, I did not acknowledge it. I ignored it. I didn't even say, like, hey, I think that was so-and-so. I just passed over it because I think that honestly, I think it was that entity was trying to trick me into thinking it was something good. Oh But outside, mimic. Yes, exactly, like a mimic. And this, this thing sounded 100% like someone that I had known. And it took a lot out of me to like completely ignore it. And, but outside of that, in terms of like me investigating by myself, no, most of it's been like what I call residual. Like, um, The people I don't even think realize that I'm there or that were there, that they're just the energy of that location is experiencing a residual habitual effect that people did while there. Oftentimes, people like in haunted homes, if they like, my house is haunted, when they say they saw like maybe a ghost go through a wall. You often find out that that wall wasn't there for like that period of time, that there was actually maybe a doorway that was like taken out. Again, it's like residual. That spirit is just doing, it doesn't even like realize what's happening. It's just like in its existence. I've experienced that 10 times more than like anything super scary. And I do actually try to like avoid that. I think that's actually to. I know, like, normal people would be like, you're avoiding that. Okay, sure. But that's, I do tend to avoid that because that makes me nervous and I wouldn't ever want to bring something home or do something like that or offend something or any So of that. there's this girl on TikTok. I think her name is Ashley. She does spooky scary story time, and she's done these stories for years. And this is the closest thing to like. Ghost coverage that I'm into because as soon as I see her have a new video, it's always at least like five minutes long and she's talking about some spooky ass shit. I am stacked and I will watch it and I will cry. And I just Yeah. know that I'm not built for that lifestyle. But it is fascinating to hear about parallel dimensions that people Yes. were. Driving and then they feel like they're driving in a loop almost, Yes. or they stop at a gas station and that gas station, when they it it was a weird situation, and then they can't try to go back to that same gas station in the future, and that gas station has been run down, and it looks like it's been run down for thirty years. So it's like the that and like negative entities inside of a house that kind of attach to you or objects. And that's that's why I'm anti-going to any of these places is because I feel like I've watched her stories for years and I'm like, ain't no way you're gonna catch me in something like this. Even I have a group of girlfriends who you've met on my bachelorette party on the keys. We take a girls' trip every year, and they're talking about going to Salem next year. I know they I already think texted me I about was gonna it. say, I know you're invited to this trip because I was like, Oh, Grace is all into this spooky shit. And you know, I have a couple of girlfriends that are like, Oh, we're gonna find the spookiest place and like book a hotel room. And I was like, Absolutely not. Are Yeah. we staying there? We can visit. But if y'all are all staying there, No, I will be yeah, at the we Marriott should stay there. down the road. Absolutely, I won't be because I don't want to invite that kind of stuff into my house. It's also a reason why when I go to a place like New Orleans, which just Yeah. has so much history there, Yes. especially around like vampires and obviously, you know, the slave trade, and you know, I think. France at one point had taken all of their prisoners and like emptied out their prisoners or prisons and shipped them off to Yes. around the Gulf region. And so that place to me has like a lot of like spooky energy. Yes. And like obviously voodoo is a thing there as well. And that's just the kind of stuff that I'm like, I'm fascinated by, but I don't want to, I don't want to go too far. Yeah, Because I don't totally. want nothing attached to me because I know I will just fall to the ground and just cry, and the ghost will have me. Like, I'll be done for. I wouldn't even have the strength to fight back, I would just be paralyzed with fear. Um, No, but but, that's anyways. but you know what? That's it's it's good it's good that you acknowledge it. I think like uh the more that you do this kind of stuff, like you do know your limits. You start to know now in my group of friends, like and I don't know how I became this way, but they like to make fun of me because I love to go into places alone. Like, I will be the first one to volunteer and be like, yeah, I'll go in there. Or, like, how about I stay up here? You guys go downstairs and we'll see if we hear anything in between. Like, I'm very, I've, and I've always kind of been that way. Like, I love like an abandoned place, you know, but it's about, again, it's about knowing your limits. And I know that, like, if. If I feel something darker, those situations, like I stay far from it. There's again, there's like some museums I've been to, the Warren House Museum that's on that's traveling right now. I've done that. I've done like the real Annabelle doll and all that stuff. Whenever you, it's just about like following for me, it's follow the rules. Like, just like if you were around like a mountain lion or like a wild animal, you know, like you're not going to put your hand in there, you're not going to do these. It's, it's all energy based, right? Yeah. So it's good that like you know your boundaries and you stick to those because I think the spiritual world follows that direction too. And I think there's also like a level of like sleep paralysis that comes into play too, and like you're that world between dreaming and real life and Yeah, A lot of people talk about, you know, they feel like this heavy pressure that's on their chest that they yeah. can't move. And so that is, from what I understand, like your brain at night when you're dreaming is just going through all of these like scary situations. Yeah And so it protects, it protects you from those fears and those anxieties. And that's why, whenever you do wake up, And you feel like you can't move, that's still your brain trying to protect you from those dreams. But and that's why you can't move. And so I'm explaining it horribly, but that's how they think sleep paralysis
happens:
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is that your brain is going through scary situations that you don't know how to handle. And then once you. You wake up, your body doesn't fully realize that you've woken up, Yes, but it's still trying to fight against those scary dreams, if that makes sense, yeah. which is so fascinating. So, there's a lot of stuff in this world that I don't think we understand. And there's a lot of complexity to it. And a lot of things just really are energy, things we can't Yeah. see and things like that. So, I think you're smart to avoid. The negative energy because there may be a situation, and I don't know for sure, but there may be a situation where folks just want to have an interaction so bad that they don't care if it's good or So bad energy. that's 100%, I think, what happens to a lot of people is that they just like. They want something to happen to validate this thought that they have. And, like, I will say, like, trust me, as someone who's lost people, I think it's so interesting. there's been a few big losses in my life. And I remember like the first couple of ghost hunts I've done around those, there's always this small part of me who's that's like. It would be really cool if this person like showed up, you know. And I think that you have to put that stuff aside. I again, it's all the energy, right? If I, if that's clouding my thoughts, and I'm not allowing myself to open myself for the good that's out there or those good spirits to show up or those situations to happen, and I think I've like, you know, I always leave these places with kind of like this, yeah, just like sense of home usually for most of these spirits. The Waverly one, just because I've been to it so many times, it's like. Sometimes I've had nothing happen there. Sometimes it's been active all night. It's the one place I've actually seen like a physical dark shadow man. And even in that experience, I was like, I didn't feel unsafe, you know? And it's, it's, again, I think it's the path that you lead for it. It's the energy. It's the same you go through life. You know, if you're a glass half full, you're probably going to have that type of experience. Experience as well. Yeah, for sure. I mean, and even if you're not even out there looking for it, you know, some of these experiences can come and find you unexpectedly. Oh, yeah. I think that's what freaks me out the most is the mimics that people that mimic. That stuff You know, your freaks loved me ones' out. voices, and Yes. you know, the spooky scary story time chick, she a story just recently that was a woman sitting around a campfire, and it was just her and her dog. And then the dog's hair started raising on the back of its back. You know how that happens with dogs. And then she just started hearing her dad's voice, and Yeah. her dad had passed. And she knew that that wasn't her dad's voice. And so she knew, not to acknowledge it and Yep. to ignore it. But she knows, especially because of her dad, her dog's reaction, that there was something out there that was calling to her and trying to get her to go out into the woods. And Yes. that, I'm going to cry just Was like she thinking in about Appalachia? these probably that's Yeah, it, and that those you don't whistle out there, you nope. know, like. And if you heard something, no, you didn't. Yeah, you don't Nope. whistle because something's going to whistle back, and you're going to be regretting that a hundred percent. You know, that I think the Appalachian Mountains are the oldest thing on planet Earth, I believe. Yes, Like yeah, it was around, like, those mountain ranges were formed yes, before Pangea. Like, yes. that's how, that's how the history of those mountains and how they. I think the North Atlantic Ridge like Yep. split off, you know, however many millions of years ago. And so the same mountain ranges that go through the Carolinas up to Maine, that's also the same mountain ranges in like Scotland and the UK. And like Yep. they all used to be joined before the North Atlantic Ridge, I think, split open, if I'm if I'm getting that plate tectonic correct. That's that's that's the science that I like. That's my spooky science. No, You but have it's your so spooky fun. science and Well, you know, it's so funny because I, you know, I've been to a couple conventions recently where it's like a bunch of weirdos like us. And you'd be surprised how quickly these conversations turn into aliens or dimensional conversations. especially that one, like the Appalachian Mountains, like there's this whole theory that really what's happening is that. There's it's quote-unquote aliens in there, but like it could be an entrance to like less of like outer space aliens and more of like, no, these are aliens that had to go underground like during a period of time. And so, see, like, this is what I'm saying. Don't I know girl, the outside, don't get me started. I know on the outside, you're like ghosty, spooky, weird, but. Quite frequently, that's how these conversations start: is like more of like, are ghosts real? Like, to like people like me, we're like, okay, we're boring. Like, yeah, ghosts are real, but like, what are even are they? You know, like, Yeah. is it a dimension we're seeing? Is this, like, what Anunnaki is actually happening? Yes. dude, Yeah. like an Anunnaki episode Yes. of like. Sold. See, We'll probably lose every sponsor for this show. But you know what? We could talk about underground dimensions and whether the upside yes, down world exists in Antarctica if you see. just go beyond the wall and listen, this is turning into definitely a spooky supply chain episode. Now you see why I'm so fascinated by Antarctica. Yeah, see? All right, well, I think that this is a good place. We're all 25 minutes into this episode and we haven't exactly gotten to our first spooky supply chain story. Shall I kick it off? Do it. Let's go for Okay, it. let me. I've made everyone fearful already. How about you take the lead now? Well, let's talk about the merchant who never came back. Because as far as like a setup for this show, we like we Spooky Supply Chain is definitely a series that we want to do in the future, and we're going to be promoting each of these individual segments. But each of us have different spooky supply chain stories over the course of history. And so I'm going to kick things off. With the merchant who never came back, because I'm fascinated by merchants throughout the years, especially over across the Silk Road. And so allow me to read a little bit here. Picture an oasis town called Turfan in what is now northwest China. It sits about 500 feet below sea level and summers hit around 120 degrees. In the 600s, it's a key stop on the Silk Road. It's packed with Sogdian merchants, which are traders from Central Asia who move goods between China and Iran. Sometime in the 670s, one of those merchants heads west on a trading trip toward the kingdom of Kucha. That road runs straight into a war zone. He never comes back. There's no body, no goods, and no word. One witness later guesses bandits got him. But nobody ever proves it. Before he left, he sent 275 bolts of silk to a Chinese merchant named Li Shaojin. I'm probably not pronouncing that correctly, so forgive me. But a bolt is essentially a roll of silk about 40 feet long. And out here, silk works like cash. Now, his younger brother, Li's younger brother, Cao Lushan, wants that silk back. And Li says, which is the Chinese trader who he was supposed to send it to, never got it, and there's no written contract. So the brother takes Li to court in Turfan, which is an ancient area of China. But his two Sogdian merchants step forward and they say that they watched the loan happen. And that is essentially all of the proof that they have. There's no paperwork, it's just two witnesses. And it's a foreigner suing a Chinese merchant in a Chinese court. So we kind of have some early days of customs and borders and cross-country laws and who can kind of enforce what. This is before bills of lading. Came into play before we had, you know, sort of structured trade agreements. I guess now, who knows if they're really still structured anymore, thousands of years later. But the court applies what's called Tang law. And under Tang law, what witnesses saw counts as much as a signed contract. So the foreigner wins, and Li is ordered to repay all 275 bolts. Of silk with interest. And so that's basically a handshake deal back in the day because across the Silk Road, for a lot of folks and for a lot of these merchants, they're trained from like a very young age to it's usually you picture like these big caravans of people moving through the desert, and that's not really the case, it's usually two horses or two camels. And one or two people that are going with that load to move it across the Silk Road. And then what happens along the way is that these are crimes of opportunity. Merchants are taught that they need to sleep on their cargo in order to protect it because no one else is going to protect it for them. And then there's also the added, I guess, kind of responsibility for any of these merchants, like as they marry and have children. To teach their sons how to go along this route the same way that the fathers do. And so, what the children have to learn from a very young age is they have to learn at least three languages. Some of them learn up to 10 languages just so they can traverse back and forth through the Silk Road. And then there's also like additional training where, maybe a young merchant will have to, he'll, you know, how they. If you ride on a camel, there's usually a saddle. And so they'll teach them to lay on the saddle so they can feel what the ground feels like. And then they can kind of estimate what the footprints and the tracks that they're leaving, and then how much that entire cargo weighs. And so then when they see other tracks, They can kind of guess who else is going across the Silk Road, what kind of freight or cargo that they're moving based on the camel tracks and the amount of like maybe dirt that's like blown over the tracks, or maybe they're traversing during colder winter months. And so For a lot of these kids, like kids, children that are on the silk road, they're learning all of this as they grow. And then they just hope that they make it to an average age of like 40 years old. So I'm really fascinated by like different merchants and just the life of a merchant and how lonely it probably was, unless you had your children with you to kind of pass the time and teach them different ways.
That's my first story:
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is the guy who essentially went missing. There's no body to be found. So you can kind of see like where this ancient Silk Road happened, where Tang China is like a new dynasty that had just started off. And so it's rumored that this, there were trade there, trading that was happening from the coast of China all the way back over to Rome, because they even found like Roman coins in and around different Chinese villages. And this is often, I think, what a lot of people don't understand is that for these trade routes, this is often where culture was shared, languages were shared. You know, you found different products from different countries. And then also, it changed from like an ocean merchant standpoint because when the people were traveling across the Silk Road, They could only carry light stuff. So, silk was considered a form of currency because it was so light and so valuable. Very rarely did they actually take coins with them because coins were heavy and they didn't want to tire out the animals or tire out the people that were carrying a lot of this stuff because the camels and the horses were carrying supplies for them. So it was different things like silks were a big one. Jewels were also a big one because they were lighter, but they were also worth more. And so it was like this whole economy that happened on the Silk Road, which honestly still happens to this day. And so, for a lot of, I think, travel or like businesses around that area, they still have it, they have nowadays it's a train that's set up. To take this same exact route, but instead you can take the silk route through trains instead of you know relying on camels and things like that. Even hotels like around China will advertise it, they're like a silk road hotel. Um, I think Uzbekistan, too, which is also a hidden gem as far as uh you know silk road trading was concerned. Uh, but it I I'm endlessly fascinated by merchants and how they traversed the Silk Road and then how that evolved into the Merchant Mariner, which, when that cargo ships started coming into play, that's when you could really move some serious freight from point A to point B. That's going to signal into my second story that I'll share because. That's where, like, the real money was starting to be made: where these big cargo ships, these big shipping vessels that were created and they could carry a lot more weight. And then that's when the Silk Road, as we kind of romanticize, or maybe I do about it, that's when it started kind of waning and it. Lost a little bit of its luster because then the routes just started going through by sea instead of through the Silk Road itself. I always like to think about this time period and wonder like would I would I have played by the rules you know of humanity because what it's surprising to me that people weren't just robbing each other non-stop Especially, it's like, oh, you got a light load of silk? Like, can't wait to steal that. And, and that's what's interesting. I mean, it's funny because it's like, I've seen documentaries of like even climbing. You, when you showed that map, that area of mountains down there, like climb the trip it takes to get to Mount Everest. I've watched numerous docs on that. And like, How they use the donkeys and stuff. It's like was society just like, wow, like you've accomplished such a feat getting this far. I couldn't drop you. that's what's crazy to me: is like moving anything of any value back then via road compared to. At least the ocean, you have some protection, right? Like, but just to be like, let's to the, I love the Tang Law, though. oh, enough people saw you agree to this. again, another of like, I sometimes hear these stories and I'm like, God, where did society go? You know, it's like. Especially because eyewitness testimony is like the most unreliable Yes. Yeah. form of evidence now that we know this. Totally. Like, I mean, anything to all the logistics people out there, we all know, like, you move a pallet a quarter of an inch, you better have a paper trail. You know, it's like, let alone. No, there were 10 people there, law's law. That's crazy. Yeah, there's no contract. There were only two witnesses, and it was 275 bolts of it. So I'm trying to look to see what the amount was. But that was another thing too, is that for a lot of merchants, from a historical perspective, we don't have a lot of stories being told by merchants. But we do have now that some of the along the Silk Road, because that a lot of that climate was so dry and free of humidity. That they did discover, I think, within the last few years of like an entire like all these different papers, and they all came from merchants. And so it was the first time that we really have seen a lot of data or a lot of insight coming from the merchant point of view. And it was just like glorified receipts. And that was the only way for you to sort of keep track. Or if you're working in China and you are the one that owns all of this silk, like how can you actually trust someone to traverse thousands of miles on foot? And then, if that freight goes missing or that cargo goes missing, who do you reach out to? And who do you have a comeuppance with? Because for that guy, I mean, at least he won like in a foreign court. I doubt that would happen today. Yeah, also, like, how did court tell you where to show up? You know, it's like, Yeah, what happens if you just don't show? I would love to see, And also, imagine like running inventory in this type of situation. You're like, well, we've got so much coming in and so much coming out. And you're just like, the And that's clock the can thing. do all of So, that. the rest of this story, so it the only reason we know that this case happened is because the court papers ended up as clothing for the dead. And so, what happens with a lot of the silk traders, from what I understand, is that. If they messed up their outfit or something was wrong with their clothing, that they would just kind of break into the freight that they were hauling and then cut off some different pieces of fabric and they would replace their fabric.
So apparently, that's what happened here:
37:44
is that that same silk, which we should do, I should do probably a larger story on just the silk that is made. Because it's just such a fascinating process. This, I think it's a certain spider that makes Yeah. the no, it's a worm that It's makes like, the yeah. silk, and then that turns into different weaving materials, and then that's turned into, but it's incredibly valuable even to this day. Um, but they said whether Lee ever paid up, nobody knows. But they found out because the clothing ended up on somebody who was dead. Oh, So Clovidrail. trust witnesses and a paper trail decided who got paid. And about 1,300 years before anyone signed a bill of lading. So knowing exactly who you're dealing with today is still the whole game. And so there was an interesting note, too. So with the Silk Road Travel. Tourists can visit Samarkand and Turfan, which Turfan was the place of the crime that we just talked about. And freight still moves alongside that route, only now it goes by train. China runs freight trains straight across Central Asia to Europe, and in 2025 alone, more than 20,000 of those trains made this trip. The old problem rides along with them. Last year in Kazakhstan, Police caught six men who had been breaking into containers on those trains. And by then, they had stolen about $420,000 in strollers, security cameras, and auto parts. So, still, you know, train robberies are definitely a thing. And that hints to my last story I'm going to share. So, I'll just leave it at that. Because, yeah, train robberies are. Kind of cool to learn about. So, yeah. Okay, now, uh, Grace, before we get into your segment, just a quick little ad read for SPI Logistics because everything is logistics is presented by SPI Logistics. And today's whole show comes back to one question: Who is actually moving the freight? If you're a freight agent, your answer. To that question, is you're answering that question every day on top of selling, billing, and chasing payments. SPI Logistics built its agent program so you can spend your time selling. Their back office handles billing, collections, credit, and claims. Fraud prevention is built into the tech stack, and you get access to a network of more than 85,000 vetted and monitored carriers. So, if you've been thinking about making a change, we put together a guide for SPI freight agent program. Those have conversations from SPI agents and their leadership team. You can find it over on everythingislogistics.com, and I will put a link to it in the show notes. So, thank you again to SPI. For supporting content initiatives like this. And now to Grace for her first spooky supply chain story. Yeah, this is a fun supply chain story because it's going to touch on. One of our favorite topics, which is reverse logistics. It goes into really a logistics story that hurt a brand and just a little bit of murder in there as well. There's been a murder. Well, there was a murder. And we're going to jump back to 1982. Blythe, were you alive yet? No, I wasn't. Love that! Still Look at us, young a queens. twinkle in my mom's eyes. Exactly. In We're her gonna unwed get teenager eyes. love that. Sorry, mom. My parents were one year into their wonderful marriage, and this is taking place about a week after my mother's birthday as well. September 29th, 1982. We're heading up here, Blythe. No more Florida. You're gonna get cold. Welcome Boo. to Chicago. Yes. I don't know how the cubs are doing at this point in time, but probably not great. Now, Lee's returning, kids are out there enjoying the fall. And a 12-year-old girl named Mary Kellerman wakes up with a sore throat and a runny nose, a classic Midwestern problem. Now, her parents do what everyone would expect to do. You got a cold. Easy. This is what Tylenol is for. They head over and grab that extra strength because the extra strength is the good stuff. Is there regular strength Tylenol? Why do we waste our time with regular strength? Yes. It's cut Yeah. to the chase. Yeah. Comment in the chat if there's regular strength Tylenol because I've never seen it in my life. Regardless of that marketing decision. We'll get into a much worse one here. Now, the most trusted painkiller at the time had some issues. So, Mary at the time takes one capsule. Next morning, she's dead. She literally dies. Now, the same day, a few miles away in Arlington Heights, a 27-year-old postal worker named Adam Janus takes some Tylenol as well for some chest pains, collapses. Doctors can't do anything about it. And even more weird, that evening, Adam's family gathered at his home to, of course, grieve about it. And his brother Stanley and his wife, Stanley's wife Teresa, had headaches as well. And they find that same bottle of Tylenol in their house. They take some to Adam's issue, right? Giving them the headache. They both die within days. So over the next 48 hours, three more women die across the Chicago area. Mary McFarland, who's 31, Mary Reiner, 27, who actually just had a baby as well, and Paula Prince, 35, a flight attendant for United Airlines, all found dead after taking Tylenol and finding an open bottle near them. Seven people in total, seven different households, different cities as well around the Chicago area, but no connection except for the Tylenol. So, of course, who cracked this? Well, give it up to our EMTs. Our two off-duty firefighters, Philip and Richard, were listening to the police scanner chattering on about this and noticed that Tylenol kept coming up in the conversation. Lab tests went into this. I believe at the time cops ended up going to multiple different locations that not only these individuals bought Tylenol at, but just other places as well to start testing. And the lab test confirmed that, unfortunately, the capsules inside the Tylenol had been open. The medicine that was originally in the Tylenol was dumped out and then refilled with potassium cyanide. Enough that even just one capsule would kill thousands of people over and over again. Yeah, a lethal dose for sure. And the crazy part is at the time, it was just all over panic in the Chicago area. I mean, especially the number one headache brand, right? Like someone I think that we all believe we could trust with our headaches is unfortunately killing people off. Cops were literally driving around in October. Spooky season yelling out their windows and using loudspeakers to tell people to just do not take Tylenol, which is kind of funny to think about. Not funny, but interesting, right? Because when you think about how news spreads these days, like, yeah, the cops did probably have to like drive around, like, you know, we could just, One person could send out a tweet about it. We'd all know about it within the next like two hours, but totally different story here. So if you're watching on the screen, this is what AI thought of when your photo. So Yeah, this images is a giant to like sneaker. Ghostbusters. It's a giant megaphone on top of a. I love this. So I doubt this I is what keep the police telling were people doing, like but Claude can build things, but you know, it just pictures it can't make a picture design. To come to Claude's defense, this was about 15 minutes before we hit record. And I say, go check Grace's notes. She added some stuff in there. Make some B-roll. So this is what they gave us. Yeah, And that yeah, is, I guess looks human like a. error. Claude, of course, would blame the human. Oh, we love that. Now, this is where the logistics of it all come into play. And imagine you're Tylenol, right? You're just panicking because everyone took you. Now everyone's been told they will die.
So, the first question was:
45:44
well, how did the poison get into the actual pills? Did it happen at the factory? So. They had to trace all the lot numbers and they went back into like all of the different production plants, et cetera. And they did find that the poison bottles came from two different plants, which actually sucks. Like if it was one plant, right, from a logistics standpoint, it's like, okay, at least now we can focus on what happened here. Use is a one case, but I The moment that it came up that they found the poison bottles came from two different eras, they knew uh-oh, this just got much worse. And one, and they weren't like near each other, one was in Texas and one was in Pennsylvania. So it's like different distribution lines, different trucks, different product lines. No single factory situation could pull it off. so for From that perspective, I think internally Tylenol is like great. So it's not like it's probably not one of us, but it's all but it's still our brand. what's happening? What's going on? If it was like one lot number, you know, we could fix it, we could do a recall, and then people could still keep buying Tylenol. But there's just clearly a person out there who's sabotaging us. We don't know where, how, especially did they sabotage Between Texas and Chicago? Do they sabotage between Pennsylvania and Chicago? Like, where could this be happening? But they ended up realizing using video surveillance and other evidence as well that it was much creepier. Someone was actually walking into the stores around Chicago, buying the bottles of Tylenol, taking them home, and then poisoning them one capsule at a time. So, think about this: like, and this is the real
kicker here:
47:31
of like, how did this get solved? Uh, well, there was no foil seals that you often see now on pretty much everything that you open up, especially spill bottles. It was just you could easily do this without an issue. Um, the same with the same twist cap, right? Like, the child lock that still gets us all, even we're in our 30s. Like, that was a Thing as well. So they were really exploiting this gap that people hadn't really thought of before. Much like you could say, like TSA, right? And 9-11, like all these small, well, not small, but these issues can create these really big changes. So the poisonings were local, only the Chicago area, which again, you're Tylenol, you're like, great. It it could have been like we could have made this a small town, not just like one of the largest uh Metropolitan areas. State Yes, exactly. One that's full of people getting sick right now 'cause it's the fall. So, you know, everyone's going from hot to cold and and getting colds left and right. So, what did they do? They literally ended up pulling every bottle of Tylenol off every shelf in America, about 31 million bottles, roughly $100 million worth of money in 1982. Adjust that to inflation today. We're talking about about $300 million in product today taken off the shelves. Yeah, every pharmacy, every grocery store, gas station. Think of, right? Like, even the like weird areas. I'm sure, like even like the airports, right? Talk about Chicago. And there's no barcodes, right? There's no real-time inventory systems at the time. So we're talking about just a bunch of Tylenol and cardboard boxes going back, just logistics hell for anyone who's ever been on the return side of things. Now, at the same time, JJ was offering Johnson Johnson. Of course, Tylenol. JJ Yeah, JJ's my cat. Stay out there. So at the time, they were also offering a free swap. So not only are they taking back 31 million bottles, they're at the same time pushing out 31 million bottles as well, which is just. Complete chaos. Think about the amount of trucks just like pushing that type of job out there. So, generally, and then again, the stock just got destroyed. It took a while for them, I think, to just come back in the 80s to be trusted. At some point, for a good couple of years, people will just assume you take Tylenol and you die. And imagine how you heard this story, too. It's not like, again, we're talking about today's day and age where. You know, we can say, Hey, this is a terrorist attack. Maybe the next minute it's like not a terrorist attack, and we just move on from that. Back then, right? It's like potentially all you might have heard about is that it was killing people and you didn't get the follow-up. So it just takes a long time for a brand to come back from something like that. So, for all those people out there living in their return logistics hell. You could be Tylenol at the end of the day. So, shout out to not being Tylenol. And last but not least, The Seal. The Seal came out of this. I think that's a really interesting thing to think about. Packaging is so important in this industry. Not only you talk about silk, the weight of things, like being able to make things lighter so you can ship more. But for this situation, this amount of ceiling, not only do we have the Almost like tinfoil seal on a Tylenol now. We also have the turn cap. So there's, I think, three seals technically because Then there's the even plastic around it, too, exactly. or the box it's in. Yep. So it's going to be very tough to pull this off today, but that did end up becoming a standard in 19, sorry, I keep my mind 1983, the Federal Anti-Tampering Act came through that really pushed a lot of this, especially for medicines and those types of seals. And Yeah, the big thing too, JJ stopped actually selling capsules of Tylenol too. So they went from those like we all know, the ones that break apart, like that you How can sometimes see in other medicines out there. They no longer make those. So you can't like literally bust it apart and put Oh, it back together. did they ever catch the person who did it? No. It's obvious, it's no. No, so there are some really big theories out there. I would actually, if you guys are really interested in hearing like more about the individual stories of this, especially there was about two or three people that were being accused of this at the time. Who were really fighting against like Johnson Johnson because Johnson Johnson is doing everything they could to like not be the center of the story. So there was a lot of like pushback on a few people who they traced back to and who were potential potential not witnesses, Like suspects. but suspects, yes, for this. Really got pushed down by the media because of Johnson Josh Johnson's efforts to say that they did it. There was one guy in particular who was related to. I want to say his wife was related to one of the people that did die, James W. Lewis. He did pass away, though, before they could retest a lot of the evidence. And it's been about 40 years now. So the good chance that whoever did do it probably isn't going to be caught is very high. But yeah, it's still a cold case to this day. And there's Netflix doc I would say highly suggest going and watching if you want to hear more about those individual stories of potentially who could have done it. And they also very deeply get into the responsibility of Johnson Johnson and these providers of. Of being able to track this stuff and be able to either prove that they are or not involved in something like this and how they work with the media against suspects as well. So, yeah. Which is nuts because there's two threads that I think are interesting, and how one person who Can derail a company that's been around for what, like 100 years or 80 years at that point. Yeah. Like they had been around for so long, and one person can create that level of scaring to Yeah. cause a brand to have to spend that much money in order Yeah. to get all of that freight back. But then the lost trust that probably took. Years, maybe decades even to build that trust back. So that I think that's one interesting thread. And then another thread that you were talking about is how Johnson and Johnson were trying to get the media to not blame them, to blame the person, which rightfully so. But I do wonder if that's where maybe there was some. Maybe that's when the prescription level of advertising initially got started on television and media channels. They talk about, on the majority of news channels today, how the overwhelming majority of sponsors that are on any given news program, it's like 70% of them are all pres prescription drugs. And so I wonder if maybe that was like, you know, kind of the precursor to developing media relationships between prescription drug companies and media entities. 100%. And I think just the overall responsibility of like proving yourself innocent, right? Like for a lot of these individuals, it was very hard for them to afford lawyers, things like that. And then you're up against Johnson and Johnson of all things. You know, how were you going to win that? Um, I will say though, it also was this like interesting time period where I think everything was like looked at and how their packaging was being sealed. Um, I know the Halloween that year was like people were very anxious about like what was in the candy. If people would do this to Tylenol, why wouldn't people do this to children too? And kind of that like candyman lure that's out there. Was that So when it started to like start checking candy? Because it wasn't just, you know, the candy, they're tainting the pills. yeah, I want to say the candyman was more in the 70s, but it's you know ramping to that point, that point of like, oh, someone could do this. There was a lot of copycats at the time who did this as well. And I think that was, if I remember correctly, another issue. With this whole thing of like, okay, is the copyet now Johnson, Johnson, Johnson, Johnson said that we're good, are we not good? And that just whole back and forth. So, yeah, it's like, it's interesting. I think we sit back. There's a lot of things that we look at our food today and we talk like the red dyes and all that kind of stuff. And I think we oftentimes forget, Even 30 years ago, like what we were potentially putting ourselves in the face of when it comes to how we're sealing and shipping. And I think what's scary too, right? Is like these vastness of Johnson-Johnson, how many people could have touched this, like to this day. We don't. Maybe it was someone who somehow knew and put it, but who knows? A lot of questions. So it's Johnson and Johnson's fault that our parents had to check all of our candy Yes. and they probably stole half of the candy because it's Yeah. contaminated Yes. or it looks weird. That's Yeah, it. my father My dad did would that use that too. excuse. No, see, my father was the exact opposite. Halloween was work for us because 50% of candy was going to him, and there was no And your own question. tariffs. Yes, yeah, there was no question if dad was going to get some of this candy. It was like, we have to get more candy because we need to expect our dad to stand. Oh There's some child labor laws, I think, that are mixed up in there, but God bless the 80s. yes, yeah, a hundred percent. Oh I man. think there was even like one last note there on just the checking of the candy. I distinctly remember my mom talking about how people would take needles. Yes. And put them in the side of a candy bar. So you can't, even if you're checking it, you couldn't, it would be easy to miss the needle hole on the candy bar. And she's like, if you, if you bite into it, just make sure you bite slowly. Don't chomp down on it. Like it was all of these different rules that we had whenever we were getting our candy. Yeah, the I'm I am interested in where because I was the same thing. I remember like being so afraid of me. Why were we so afraid of needles? Like, did someone actually do Johnson that? and Like, Johnson, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. The poor needle industry is like Johnson. This is they're it at it about again. us. Yes. All right. Well, for our next story, I'm going to take this one because this is, we're going to go a little bit further back in time. And this story, number two, for me, is Henry Avery or Every, I should say, is a famous pirate. Have you ever heard of Henry Every I don't think so. But the I last didn't name sounds either familiar. until I started doing Yeah. research for this Yeah. story. But I think most of us have heard of, you know, like Blackbeard and Yes. pirates like that. Henry Every was apparently another, like one of the most famous pirates that has ever lived. But he takes the Ganj-i-Sawai in 1695. That's my next story because. We're talking about expensive loads that got stolen in one shot. So in 1694, Henry Every is the first mate on an English ship called Charles II. He leads a mutiny. The crew takes the ship, renames it the Fancy, and elects Every as captain. They head into, they head for the Indian Ocean. In September of 1695, a convoy of 25 ships is sailing home to Surat. After the pilgrimage to Mecca. In that convoy is the Ganj-i-Sawai, which is the biggest ship in the fleet of the Mongol Empire. I'm not even going to pretend to pronounce this name Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb. Sorry for mispronouncing again in the second story. It carries as many as 80 cannons and around 400 armed guards. This ship. Was freaking huge. I watched, I was watching a lot of YouTube videos last night. I did not know that cargo ships could hold 80 cannons. When I saw the side of what one of these ships looked like, and I'll bring up
some B-roll here in a second:
1:00:13
80 cannons on one side of the ship. That is nuts. That's how big some of these ships were. The fancy, which was every ship, had comparatively 46 guns. On its cargo ship. So every Every and a small band of pirate ships takes the escort first. Because, for folks who don't know, a huge ship like the Ganj-i-Sawai, it is one of many ships that travel together in a fleet. And so for Every, he takes out the escort ship first, and then they chase down the big one. The fight runs about two to three hours out in the open ocean until one of Ganj-i-Sawai's own cannons blow up. And then, when that happens, the pirates swarm aboard. It's the largest prize pirates have ever taken. It includes gold, silver, and jewels. Each man walks away with about 65 years of a sailor's pay from one ship from one pool. And so, in today's wages, that's around $4 million per pirate of what they got off of this one ship. But then the bill comes due because the emperor of the Mongol dynasty, the emperor blames the English because, if you remember, around that time is the East India Trading Company. They have a lot of stuff going on over in India and in that surrounding region. Obviously, not all good stuff. But East India, the Mongol Empire is pissed. So they blame the East India Company. And then the East India Company then goes back to the emperor, it goes back to the king. And so they call it the first global manhunt because the king over in England, sort of that area, does not want this kind of heat. And the East India Company doesn't want to be blamed for something that they didn't have anything to do with. But every sales after the global manhunt gets started because they put the word out to everywhere. So you have globally, you have all these different sort of hideaways. Madagascar is one of them where pirates can kind of go and just hang out and, do do whatever pirates do on their own. But they can kind of, you know. Be free of worry of getting captured on a place like Madagascar and Nassau, Bahamas. So that's where Every actually sails to. He sails to Nassau in the Bahamas and pays off the government or the governor to let him into port. But then the crew scatters. Two dozen of them are caught and five are hanged in London. But Every himself is gone. They don't know what happened. The last word that they heard about Every is that he got a small crew together, he buys another smaller ship, sails off. No one knows whatever happened to him. No one knows what happened to that treasure, but except for the guys who got caught and got put to death. So they got a little bit of that sort of cargo back, but. Definitely not all of it. And what's crazy is that this ship, this ship made this voyage regularly from around the India area. I think it's called Suraj. Suraj, I think is the city that they sail from. And they sail to Mecca. And then they arrive in Mecca. They load up these giant ships with all of their freight and jewels and, you know. Doing a bunch of different trading, and then they sail back. This route is known globally that this route is taken every single year with this kind of freight. And so it's kind of like: did y'all not see this coming? Like, how did y'all not know that you were going to be targeted for this kind of freight? And still, I think to this day, It is one of the most the treasure actually was never recovered. East India Company put the haul at about three hundred and twenty five thousand pounds, but the Mughal accounts claimed it was nearly twice that. But yeah, four million per pirate. That is that that's a lot of money. And you that could think that could buy you a lot of secrets for a long time. But in the Bahamas, every paid governor Nicholas Trott about 860 pounds from that, roughly three years of a governor's salary. Only 24 of his men were ever caught. The first jury acquitted them of piracy. Prosecutors retired them for stealing, prosecutors retired them for stealing the ship itself, not the actual treasure. And so the five that were hung at London's execution dock on November 25th, 1697 were charged with stealing a ship, not necessarily stealing the treasure that was on board the ship. So since 2014, silver coins minted in Yemen in 1693 have turned up in Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and North Carolina. Where they think that that's where Every crew spent them while on the run. So they had access to this treasure and they were spending it in all of the different 13 colonies. And then that's the treasure just sort of lost forever, probably in someone's private collection somewhere. But the last solid trail of Henry Every runs to Ireland in 1696. Two of his men are caught there with treasure. Every slips away again and is never seen again. Later reports say that he died broke a few years after, though nobody can prove it. The moguls never got their treasure back, and the bill landed on a company that never touched the cargo. So a stolen load still hits the shipping, the broker, and the carrier Joe long after the claim is paid. it's in I was gonna say it's interesting to think that like the the original colon colonies got like a economic boost from this you know like they're just like I don't know if you've ever seen any of the, I don't know how it is like in the Northeast, but like in Florida, it's a regular thing in like St. Augustine or in the Keys to like sell pirate gold replicas. Oh, wow. So I wonder if maybe I've just like unintentionally purchased a replica of what could have been from the Mughal Empire. Yeah. Freight just, but it was just astonishing. Let me see if I could bring up some of these images because, but before first, before I get to that, it says, I guess, trying to apply that to today, because piracy is absolutely still a thing. But Yeah. it's a twist. It's around the world. It's actually down as far as pirate activities are concerned. The International Maritime Bureau, which tracks attacks on ships, counted 51 of them in the first nine months of this year. We all know what area of the world that's happening at. Obviously, Straight of Hormuz, but it is the lowest. Number since the early 1990s. But off the coast of Somalia, it looks like a it looks a lot like Henry Every's day again because Somali pirates have hijacked eight ships this year, and almost every sailor taken hostage anywhere in the world is taken by the people of Somalia or whoever is in Somalia. So Yeah, it's technically piracy is at a 35-year low. I wonder how this year affects some of that, those stats. Do you think the pirates like Stopped pirating? do you think that was enough money for them to be like, or are they like Jack Sparrow where like the pirating never ends? It's probably the pirating never. I don't. I think if you live that kind of lifestyle, number one, I think that. You're not long on this earth. It's not exactly Sure. a lifestyle that Sure. you're going to do until you're 70. It's a young man's game, I would imagine. Yeah. And then I think for a lot of these locations, because we're looking at the map right now, and you're kind of seeing like the blue line of where, I don't know if you can see, you can't really see my mouse. But like the England area, like that's where he started, that's where Henry Every started. And so he takes his first ship there. And then that's when he goes all the way around the southern coast of Africa, so the Cape of Good Hope, sails around there to Madagascar, which is, if you're looking at the map, Madagascar is to the right of Africa. And so he's there and kind of just hanging out with his crew. And then that's when they are starting to plot the raid to go after the Ganj-i-Sawai ship. And that today, I think, is one of still to this day one of the biggest heists that has ever happened. and then it's like you steal something like that. You know, it reminds me kind of like the Mona Lisa. It's like, then, what do you do? Now, now you're a target to get hit too. So it's like, I think, where do you even sell that stuff without raising an alarm? Like, you couldn't just like Apparently, the Thirte Colonies low-key. Yeah, you're right. That's exactly. But even like that, like you couldn't put it in a bank. So it's like then people are probably also robbing you on the street because it's like you've got all this gold. Oh, look, it's showing my It's search like history. succession, right? Like there's that quote where he's like, five million is like the worst amount of money to have because it's like not enough to live forever. It's like that it almost sounds like this would suck because it's like, well. What do you like? Like your bone, like, where do you where do you go now? Especially if you can't spend that money anywhere. And so I Yes. didn't find what I will do is in the show notes, I'll link to a couple of the videos that I watched on this. Now imagine the size of the ship that has 80 or has what Yes. 400? Is that what the number was? Yeah, I think. 400 armed Yeah. guards, 25 ships sailing home, but blanket on that. It carries as many as 80 cannons and around 400 armed guards. And so the fancy, which is what every ship was, had 46 guns on it. So it's just insane to think about that many cannons, that much weight that is on a cargo ship is also wild to me because that has nothing to do with Yeah. like just to think of like not just the cannons, but the cannonballs that go into it, the other, I guess. What is it? The like, not lighter fluid, but you know, whatever that they light to get the cannon to light, gunpowder. So you got the gunpowder, too, that you have to have, probably a whole bunch of guns. And then you have all of the treasure, which is super heavy as well. And so if you think back to the first story of how people were traversing over the Silk Road. And they had to be very conscious of what they carried and why because you would be able to tell in the camel's footsteps and the damn ground of Shared how much freight they were hauling and maybe what kind of freight they were hauling. That same thing, you didn't have any of those concerns on a ship. But if you're doing the out same route every year and you kind of boast about the fact that you're doing this same route every year. I think you're just setting yourself up for it as a target. Yeah, well, exactly. It's like you'd have to, you'd have to live a pirate's life forever, Yeah, you know? exactly. Wow. I feel so bad for everyone. Well, it's one of those things you just don't know. It's a, I guess, a problem until it's a problem. That's why Yeah. there's so much of this. Just, it's, it's almost a game of cat and mouse with cargo crime. And it kinda you can tell throughout the history of these stories so far that it doesn't matter. You get that crimes and criminals were come out of nowhere to Yes. take your stuff. And ways that you don't even imagine. And it takes a lot of people and investigations and probably greater influence in order to find out even who did the crime to begin with. Because if the East India Company didn't care, then Yeah. they don't pay any of that bill to the Mongol Empire. And then even Yeah. the emperor or even the king. Don't care either until it makes it his problem. He's probably turning a blind eye to a lot of this piracy that's going on because he's getting rich from it too. But if he catches a lot of heat and the trading companies are, going to be forced out and they're going to cease trade operations between India and the Brits, then that's a situation where they definitely don't want that to happen. And that probably. We could still feel the ripple effects to this day of Britain remaining in India and keeping that relationship and that kind of evolving into the relationships between those countries today, which I think is just super fascinating, especially for some crime that happened in the 1600s that is impacting global trade to this day. Yeah. Well, thank All goodness right. we got better paper trails and people. I think I would assume that's gotta be the main reason I'm coming down. It's just one, well, one, we're not shipping gold like that anymore, right? So Right. it's like, I would love to know like what the average like load of like the value of an average load a pirate takes, right? Like, is the crime Worth the squeeze, right? Is the orange Yeah. worth the squeeze on that one? Like, I'm sure for some people, but like, not if it's not $4 million, you know? Like, Well, yeah, I mean, you got insurance to yes, cover a lot of those now, and totally. I think. Uh, what is it? Lloyds Lloyds of London wasn't that invented around sort of the height of piracy Yeah. as well. And Yep. so that that's actually a little interesting because if you're that close to the people who are hiring the pirates. Maybe you have some internal knowledge of where those shenanigans are taking place, Yeah. and you can have a better educated guess on what freight you're going to insure and what freight you're not going to insure. It's turned into a pirate conspiracy. Let's put our tinfoil on top of We our cowboy don't get hats. into that nonsense on the Not rodeo, today. you know? We stay on the trail, you know. All So right, Grace, we got your story next. The River Remembers. Go ahead and set it up for us. yeah, so if you are a fan of this show. Then you know I love the Great Lakes. We're gonna start there, right? Like, you know, me, I I'm a Edmund Fitzgerald stan, you know, like we talk about spooky underground or underwater graveyards. I'm gonna bring up Lake Michigan, Huron Superior. We're going to bring up those beautiful beasts of water. But this is actually inspired by an Instagram reel because I'm not on TikTok, as Blythe likes to point out, that I sent to Blythe the other day. And I was like, yeah, actually, this is kind of a spooky story. So I dove into it a little bit more myself. Because we're in the reel, we're following a trip of grain throughout the Great Lakes, basically to the ocean. And what I found fascinating about this was what starts to happen the closer you actually get to the ocean, in particular for all our Quebec stands out there, what's happening kind of in your neck of the woods when it comes to our waterway? Which I'm not going to lie, I'm biased. If it's past Lake Erie, I kind of don't care. I've always been that way about my great lakes, you know? Like, Ontario, I know you exist. Good for you. I'll get to you someday. But this, the St. Lawrence River and Seaway, I thought was very interesting. Being in that's the last little portion that most of our like grain, coal, ships have to go through in order to get out that side of the United States. So just a little fun facts for all those out there. The St. Lawrence River is about 1,200 kilometers of river running from Lake Ontario out into the Atlantic. It is a seaway, it's the front door of our beautiful Great Lakes. So, how dare I not take some time to recognize that as well? And it's one of the hardest working waterways on this continent alone and has a ton of interesting ghost stories. And it's like, now I have to go to Quebec, why? That's where I'm going to get to by the end of this. So we're going to go all the way back to 1914. Quebec, Yes. right? That's not it. Quebec Is it Quebec? Quebec. Yikes, dude, because I work with like quite a few people from Quebec, and I'm going to slack them after this. Shout out to our slack fans out there Like and with a apologize. K, it almost sounds Quebec, like Quebec, Quebec. Quebec. I think that's how it's pronounced. Sounds I, you know, like a bird. Come back! in my previous life, I was around a bunch of hockey players that were from Quebec. You know what? We love we love a hockey boy. That's No, I we forgot. don't. Yeah, no, we don't. We don't anymore. No, we don't Uh, we back don't you anymore, devils. that's right, yeah, except for Michigan. I almost wore my Michigan State hockey jersey and was almost a hockey player for this thing, but I was like, that's too easy. Anyways, come back, come back, it sounds like a bird. Come back, but if it's just me, I sound like a bird. So. For our Quebecers out there, we're talking about the Empress of Ireland, which I'm sure you Canadians out there like we love, we love her, we stand. She was actually a Pacific Ocean liner, and she was on her way to Liverpool about. 1400 people. This is again 1914. A group of about 170 members from the Salvation Army alone were also on this. They're on their way to, there's a big conference happening in London. So it was a party, call it a party boat at that time. The Quebecers wanted a party. The captain at the time, his name was Henry Kendall. We'll get back to Henry later on in this discussion, but we're focused on the beautiful Empress of Ireland. So, this is a kind of gives you an idea of what these waterways are like because it's not the Great Lakes. It gets very tight and very shallow and very odd within these waterways. So, around 2 a.m., the Emperor actually spotted another ship in the distance. This happens quite frequently at this. Little more technology these days, but definitely much less than. There was a Norwegian ship calling coal coming in, and the weather was clear, and both sides could see each other. And this, and then what happens quite frequently happened to them where a huge wall of fog will start to come through. It happens oftentimes in the late spring in St. Lawrence, so warm air drifts over the river that's still ice cold from snowmelt. Happened yesterday because somehow it got super hot here yesterday and it's still frozen on the ground. So everything, yeah, it's weird, right? It's if you've ever been in those situations where it's happening, like the fog will come out of nowhere and it's super thick and you can't see each other. So they go from being able to see each other to now completely blind, can't see each other at all. So They're doing what any ship would do back then, and that's just guess. So, about two o'clock in the morning, the Storstad, which is the one hauling the coal, comes out of the fog and slams right into the Empress. And it was again because it was coal, it just cut right through that thing. It's like hitting one of those aluminum cars with. A jeep. It's just gonna break in half. The Empress actually got a hole in her about 14 feet wide and it rolled over on its side. Unfortunately, Yeah, most people were asleep when this happened. and because of that, as well, many of the portholes are actually left open. So, unfortunately, it didn't take long. It took 14 minutes for that thing to go from being on top of the river to the absolute very bottom Wow. over. Yeah. Everyone died. All were lost. Well, actually, a few of those Salvation Army people did survive. But it was, unfortunately, one of the things that is still, I think, the worst maritime disaster in Canadian history as well. For all of those Titanic fans out there. Sorry, sorry. There was no eight, yes, sorry. 840 people had died on the Empress. That was actually eight more that had died on the Titanic. So it was a bigger death pole than the Titanic. And I'm 90% certain if I remember the footage of that, the Titanic hole, the Empress was cut much longer. Than the Titanic was by the that little iceberg we all like to remember. The wreck what's interesting is the wreck is still there. You can actually divers can, I think, see it. It's I don't think it's like the I think it's deeper, a little bit deeper. I don't think it's like the Edmund, where on special days, like you can see it very well. Wow. But it is still sitting there at the bottom of that river. But I want to go back really quick. Really quick to Captain Kendall. So, before the Empress went down, Kendall was a captain of a different ship called the Montrose. I was sailing from Belgium to Canada at the time, and he noticed two passengers acting strange. There was a father and a son. The son looked an awful lot like a woman in disguise. And Kendall actually had read in the papers that he realized the father was actually a A serial killer that was wanted for or sorry, just a murder, just a murder. He got in trouble for killing his wife. So at the time, the ship did have wireless telegraph, which was brand new technology. So really fancy stuff. And he was able to tip off the Scotland Yard. And the police actually raced across the Atlantic on a faster ship to be able to get there and arrest them at the time. Yeah, it was actually the first time a radio was used to catch a criminal. And apparently, his last quote from a guy who they did get caught was that the captain would suffer for this. The guy was hanged four years later. Kendall was, though, funny enough, on the Empress and then did survive that. He was pulled into the water, and then the staff of the Storstad did actually save him. So the curse almost got him, but unfortunately, this guy. Knows how to get in and out of ships pretty dang quick. Now, we're going to fast forward a little bit to the 1950s because, of course, this is at the time where we decided to actually build a real true lock and channel system in the St. Lawrence River to help these ships get to the Great Lakes. It came with a massive hydroelectric dam. Of course, and you're going to need that more ships coming through, the more power you have to get through that. Unfortunately, to make the river deep enough, no, they did have to raise the water. So, on the Ontario side, between Cornwall and the Iroquois, there were a lot of people there. Ten communities in particular, about 6,500 people lived in this area that they would. Kept saying we're potentially going to have to raise the water for. This is the fun logistics part of building something like this. Because, which is interesting, because you kind of look back at the time and you look at kind of the people that we're talking about to, and you would think that they might just kind of screw everyone over. I mean, it's the 50s. Like, you could probably. Just kind of displaced people, but they did actually go about moving over 530 buildings, picked up whole houses for people, used moving machines, and literally like built a whole new town with all of the 6,500 people that were living in this area before. Most of the homes were moved. There were some that were left behind. I'm sure they just built better houses. It was probably one of those situations where it was like cheaper to just rebuild than move this particular house. But most of that was actually moved. And then in July 1st, 1958, on In 1950 on Canada Day, they did break the wall holding the water, and all the water came through. And that whole old town site was then completely underwater. But the cool thing, Blithe, and this is like maybe we should go see this one day, is that when the water level does drop, so if you guys have been to a lock before. Of course, we have one here in Michigan, Sault Ste. Marie. No big deal. Right, locks so up and down so that ships can move for them. We've talked about it during Panama Canal episodes on this show all the time. I'm sure we could show some B-roll. But nowadays, when the water does. Fall, you can still see all of this old town. So you can see the sidewalks, roads. Divers often will swim down there on the shoreline. And yeah, I just think it's interesting that there's like this whole like city, not even buried. It's just like covered in water that these ships are going through every day just to. Yeah, just to like make sure it, it our goods can get to the other side or to this point to Europe, right? At the end of the day. Or that new Arctic C Row, yeah, yes, which we've also done an episode on. exactly, a hundred percent. Now, I will say this hasn't stopped the poor cursed area of the St. Lawrence Seaway. So, about this would be like 20 years, maybe like 18 years after that water was released and the locks were all built, a bulk freighter. Which I love. I love a bulk freighter. There's nothing I love more. It was called the Eastcliffe Hall. It was actually moving about 5,600 tons of iron from Quebec to Quebec, sorry, to Saginaw, which is on Lake Huron, if you're Michigan stand, cool little city. In the middle of the night, they actually did strike an underwater structure that was in that area, and it did sink. So Wow. nine people died out of like 21. It wasn't a huge casualty situation. Interesting enough, they did find out that that captain was drunk, though, at the time, pretty drunk, definitely over the legal limit, times three. Um, and the wreck is still down there, so not only right when the water goes down, can you see this town? We can also continue to see to the right, see the wreck as well. And you know, as someone who I love the I love water, I love waterways, I love lakes, not a huge Not a huge ocean stand. Blythe knows that. I always, it's like this creepy element of it that I think is so fascinating. This like this element of what that underwater situation represents. You know, we have so many of these like wrecked ships here in Michigan. They're super fun to like kind of go see whether it's like so you can See, like those window kayaks and like look underneath, or you can go diving in some of them, depending on the local laws. Um, but I find fascinating every time I see one, it's just like what they represent, which is like society and the economy at the time, and and And how much how important our waterways are to making sure that things get delivered and simple things like grain can make it to Europe. When we talk about play, like the first part of this whole thing, you talked about the different ways that you know. Trade trade routes are across the world, we oftentimes completely forget about the waterways here. And even like myself, I find myself sometimes wondering, like, how do these ships get to the ocean? I've had people ask me that before. And as a Michigander, I'm always like, I don't know, like through some river. But like, when you really dive into it and you see the amount of work. I mean, we always talk about the C Panama Canal and the Chinese workers and the actual labor that went into them to see the labor that goes into just like making it possible to trade with Europe and trade things that we really truly need. Not saying we don't need our fun stuff off Amazon, but like grain, coal, these bulk carriers. And everyone thinks they're so boring, I think, because they're like. They're just bulk carriers, but they're carrying really important things and how quickly they can come down. The lakes are brutal, especially right now. Like we're starting to get our 30-foot waves. I can take these ships down fast. That's what the Edmund Fitzgerald represents. And so, yeah, I just find it fascinating to like learn more about these ships that have fallen. Unfortunately, the people that have fallen on their behalf. But at the same time, like, you know, we talk about veterans. I support and love our veterans, but. We also kind of have to think about these people that risk their lives on like something that we just go to enjoy as tourists, right? And I think I just find that so fascinating. And again, that's why we love everything is logistics because it's like it all matters. Well, I think too, what's interesting with Shipwrecks that happen in the Great Lakes is that because it's freshwater and Yes. so they are more intact for Totally longer. So it's almost like more eerie that yet. you see these things that were, you know, look so indestructible when they're floating on water, but then you see them at the bottom of the ocean. It's like, damn, well, every, anybody or any ship could be, you know. Fall victim to this, and we had a bad wreck-a bad ship that sunk called the El Faro that came out of Jacksonville. And there's a memorial below one of our bridges in town where it commemorates the El Faro, and they put the ship right into the middle of a hurricane. Now, you can make Obviously, second guess, the captain's decisions and things like that, of thinking that how could you possibly make it through that? But maybe they're just so conditioned to tackling, you know, these big feats that, sometimes you realize it's a little too late. You know, you just mentioned 30-foot waves that are starting. Is that all winter that those waves are kind of going crazy? I think it's like more so right now. It's this like time period of the fall where it's like really bad. I mean, soon the wintertime will soon start to freeze, right? So you're Okay. not going to see too much of that depending on where you are. But the lakes can turn on you. I mean, that's the Edmund Fitzgerald was one of those where it was not supposed to be that hectic. Crazy of a night, they hit what they call a third, a triple wave. Um, God, that's so and scary. yeah, and uh, I've I've kind of hit a triple wave once, like body surfing, and it was like errifying, but they come out of nowhere, they're like so they're impossible to predict, and like that's I think that's also like really fascinating to me. Is like people. Who's like chose these careers that we talk about in logistics all the time, like the act of God, right? Like, talk about insurance, like that is like a true act of God logistics situation. It's like these boats just hitting these waves or just these hurricanes or just these like. Act of God and mother nature situations that are under are completely out of our control. but at the same time, like where's my socks? You know, it's like I was going to say, I would imagine, okay, number one. Probably higher insurance rates for the month of October if you're traversing through the sure. Great Lakes. Yeah, But then, are they using like any icebreakers there during like the winter months? Or just does freight just kind of stop? um, I would assume that they are. I've I like I've never been on the lakes like during that winter time, or at least the areas that are frozen like that, where I've seen an icebreaker, but I'm I'm sure I'm Sure, that they are. I've actually, no, I think I've seen some around the Detroit River. So, again, like the connection between Erie and Huron. But I think it's like one of those things that's like slowly and surely, you know, you just like you operate on kind of worst case scenario and you. Hope we kind of that last story we talked about, like while they were blind, it's like, what are we gonna do? Turn around, you know, like there's no, there's no option. So, you're in that, that's the fun thing about like truck logistics, right? Because it's like, okay, we'll just like get it off your back, put it on a different truck if things really do go wrong. This is kind of like we're just gonna Yeah, go what forward, can you do? yeah. I mean, And hopefully it's not best. a truck that you can leave on the side of the road or anything. Like, if you Yes, have to abandon ship, then there's a reason why you yes, have to abandon ship. totally. Oh, that's super scary. I have an irrational fear of rogue waves. I think maybe, in a previous life or something, that I have maybe died drowning or something. And because I have for years, I have had a recurring dream. And I, I've tried to do like, you know, interpretation of what the dream could mean, but I'm always like with all of my loved ones. You know, we're on vacation somewhere, and it's a giant wave that is just like a tsunami type wave that just is coming for you. And I always wake up like right before it hits, but it is a recurring dream that I've had throughout my life. So maybe, you know, something happened, you know, in a previous life, and I'm just having those kinds of different premonitions or flashbacks. But I could not imagine, you know, being on a ship like that and seeing a 30-foot wave out of nowhere. That would just freak me out. That's why rogue waves freak me out. And rogue waves, if you've never seen the videos, like go look them up on YouTube. It is insane what these cargo ships go through, Yeah. especially when a rogue wave comes out of nowhere. And it looks like it's hundreds of feet high. I'm sure it's not Sometimes that high. they just like power through, man, and Yeah. you're like, what? I'm like, how? I just picture the perfect storm where, like, they're Yes. trying to get through that last wave. And every time I watch it, I'm like, maybe this time they'll make it. And then they never do. And Yeah. yeah, that's. It's like It's so scary. what's the space movie where that planet they land on is just like a giant wave coming the whole Yeah, time. interstellar. Yes, yeah. Another thing that freaks me out, they're like, that's no mountain. It's no Oh, mouth. God. Oh, God. Oh, that started to get like pal heart. Popetel papitations I'm from going to this. send you so many big wave videos on Instagram I'll block because they you. do love to watch those, but from like a sickening point inside, like I don't like it, but I can't look away. Yes, yeah, kind of the same. Like, I'll watch the video and then I block that account immediately. Cause I'm like, never like, you get one. And then that's it. We're blocking you. And I never want to see this on my timeline again. Like gone. Oh my All gosh. right. Well, before we get into the final story from this spooky supply chain episode, a quick word from one of our other sponsors, and that's a sister site. Of mine, which is called CargoRex. Because if today's stories have you wondering who is actually hauling your freight, CargoRex has a whole category on it or categories on it: freight fraud, identity verification, carrier vetting, and monitoring, and cargo security. Each one shows the companies working on the problem, what they do, and how they compare. You can browse it all for free, and a free research account lets you save the companies. You want to talk to in your list. Find the freight fraud category over on cargorex.io. The link is in the show notes. And of course, our cargo crime guide is coming up and it's going to be in the same place on that cargorex.io website. That should be released in the first week of November 2026, depending on when you're listening to this. And so that is something I'm really pumped about because I think I mentioned earlier in the show about how I recorded these conversations over at IANA in Long Beach. Okay. Final story here, and then we will let y'all go. And I want to talk about the Reno gang who robs a moving train, and it is the first armed robbery of a moving train ever, and it happens. You would think you hear Reno and you think like Reno, Nevada, but no, Reno is a family. So picture this. It's after the Civil War. Seymour, Indiana is a busy rail junction. Just north of town lives the Reno family. And the Reno brothers already have a reputation for cheating travelers, skipping out on Army enlistment bonuses, and allegedly setting fires around town. So just run of the mill board boys. So on the night of October 6th, 1866, so damn near, I don't do the math, but same month, so general around the same time frame. John Reno, his brother Simeon, and a gang member named Frank Sparks board an Ohio and Mississippi train as it pulls out of the Seymour Depot. They walk into Adams Express car and put revolvers to the head of the messenger. Elam Miller. There's two safes in that car. Miller has the key to the small one, so he opens it pretty quickly too and says, just take whatever you want. Inside of it is$10,000 in gold coins and $33 in banknotes. We know the exact amount because it's written in the county court records. The big safe, however, came locked from St. Louis and Miller says he can't open it. So the gang shoves it right off the moving train, pulls the bell cord and jumps into the dark. They try to pry it open and can't. But when men come up to come up to the tracks on hand cars, they run and leave the safe behind. So their take is a small safe, about $10,000, but that's roughly 21 years of pay. For a laborer back then, at about $1.3 million in today's wages. Trains had been robbed before, but only when they sat parked at depots or freight yards. The Renos hit a moving train out in the country where nobody could come help. And that's why they're often credited with the first train robbery in America. And what's super interesting about this story is that. There are a lot of crime syndicates of like, sort of cowboys, hence why we're dressed up like this today when we kind of picture like freight crimes and cargo crime. That was the first place that my head kind of went to is like these bandits, you know, on horses, like running up to a train and then steal hopping on and stealing all of the cargo or maybe putting a bullet to, you know, the conductor's head and being able to take all of that, that freight. But this method of crime wasn't really known around that time. So, when this news story happens, newspapers across the country pick it up. And so, when newspapers across the country pick it up, that's when all of these different crime syndicates all over the country start seeing moving trains as the number one target in a way for quick cash. Where hardly any police presence is around during these long journeys. And so, if you picture this as right after the Civil War, this is when a lot of train tracks are just now starting to get built and the expansion out west and lots of different train routes are being created. They're being created during that time frame. And so, during that time frame, that's when all of these different crime syndicates, like a Billy the Kid. All of these different sort of western type folks start taking those opportunities to rob these trades. You know, it's it's interesting because when we were talking earlier, too, we were talking about the fact that during COVID, right. That's when we saw a lot of like kind of the more, I wouldn't call those train heists, but like train robbers, right? Where the freight was kind of just sitting there, opportunity, right? And it's, but it's interesting because the reason I think that became so big at the time was because, to your point, in this situation, too, everyone was talking about it. So it's like Like, oh, here's, and the good people are talking about it, and the bad people are talking exactly. about it. So it's like we once again fool ourselves. Well, this was so for those folks who took part, the Reno Brothers plus their accomplices, they were arrested five days later and they made bail. The only eyewitnesses were murdered once they were out. And then in 1867, so about a year later, their copycats robbed the same line for about $10,000. The Renos watched and robbed the robbers and left them for the police. And so, from what I understand, is that the Renos were not going to let somebody else try to implicate them into a crime that they weren't part of. And so, they found out about the crime and then used it as a crime of opportunity to rob from the robbers, which I thought was super interesting. Another kind of fun fact around this in Elvis Presley's first movie, Love Me Tender, he plays Clint Reno, which is the brother who stayed out of the gang. I believe he was called like Honest Clint or something like that. Yeah. But he was one of the few brothers that actually was a good one, and the other ones were all the troublemakers. Interesting. So the safe that they couldn't crack and a detective who wouldn't quit. So in express cars in 1866. Were containers on Union Pacific. So those same express cars from 1866 are still on Union Pacific in 2021. So whenever freight slows down or changes hands, somebody is actually waiting for it now, unlike back in the day. But train robbery had never actually gone away. It just looks a little different now. Instead of a gang holding up a moving train, Thieves mostly break into cars while the trains sit stopped near rail yards in Chicago, Los Angeles, and Memphis. Last year, these thieves stole more than 200 million in goods across 75,000 separate thefts. The railroads are fighting back, though, with thermal drones, AI cameras, and miles of razor wire fencing. CSX says that that has helped cut thefts around Memphis. From about 80% in a single year. So that's crazy that it's almost like we're going back to the originality of what worked with trained robbery, where you're just, it's a crime of opportunity that's just sitting there instead of strategic theft, which from a lot of my conversations at IANA, that's even though cargo crime technically is down. The amount of freight that's getting stolen, the value of the freight that's getting stolen has quadrupled because it's more strategic theft that's going on. And then a lot of the cargo crime that is happening, a lot of the strategies, people offshore organizations, call it mafias or any other kind of groups, they're studying that and then taking parts of what works as far as cargo crime in the United States. and applying it to like Eastern Europe and European train cars. And so we're seeing an increase in those types of strategic crime as well, which I think is just endlessly fascinating. So to the the the point earlier that you made, Once Once you shine you a shine spotlight a spot on this, a lot of folks will realize that, you know, good and bad, that this is a crime of opportunity. it's like the it's the uh earlier we had talked about the pirates of today, right? Like Is the value of that crime still there? I don't think it is. But interesting enough, the pirate ship that you talked about was a strategic move, right? Like we know what's on that ship. We follow that ship. And so it's like where the pirates left off has now moved to the railroads. Yeah, and did Interesting. it ever really? I mean, if Yeah. you think about from the Silk Road too, that were those were crimes of opportunity. Yes. Merchants had to sleep on their cargo. In Yeah. order to protect it. But if you're sleeping, you're vulnerable. Wild I think for each of these stories, it comes down to the same weak spot, sort of echoing what you just said. The moment freight changes hands, and the question of who's really holding it. Silk was on a handshake, a treasure ship, safe on a moving train. That's still where cargo crime happens. And so in September at IANA, I sat down with six different people who fight it for a living. So here's a little taste of who is going to be in that guide. We got Scott Cornell. You can't talk about cargo crime without talking to Scott Cornell. He is at SPG Cargo and Logistics and TAPA. TAPA sets cargo security standards for the industry and a lot of its resources are free. His big theme is technology plus the human touch. He really Emphasized on having the spidey sense and trusting the spidey sense when it comes to monitoring if your freight is going to be targeted or not. Then we got Joe Ohr from NMFTA. They have a fraud watch website, which is really cool because it allows for folks to submit anonymously to an invite-only website so you can report anonymously of how you've been targeted. For cargo and freight fraud, because sometimes it can be a little embarrassing to admit that you've fallen victim to a heist or to a sophisticated attack, or maybe even just a dumb employee in the office made a dumb decision. And I don't want to call somebody dumb, but they made a dumb decision and they clicked on a link that they shouldn't have. And so that's where you can submit. Things like that anonymously, or you can do it publicly if you want. So, that freight fraud or freight watch website is something that I'll also put in the show notes. Then, we have Bernardo Mendez Arista, he's at Gate In AI, and that's cameras and ID checks at the gate to confirm the plate, the driver, the license, and the bill of lading all match. Um, then we have a friend at the show, Reed Loustalot from Truck Parking Club. And what I thought was interesting because I was like, how am I going to find a way to fit Truck Parking Club into this conversation? But it just, after the conversation with Reed, it was like, oh my God, like we're doing all of these things to prevent freight fraud from happening. And then you won't do the bare minimum of paying for parking for your drivers so they don't have to sleep on the side of the road. And so just it all ties in. So then finally, we have Jared Palmer from Epic Insurance Brokers because a lot of stolen freight gets resold through discount stores and small shops. The owners might not know it's stolen, but obviously insurance is a big factor for a lot of companies right now. So we get into how they price it and how they price risk. And then finally, Kristy Knichel of Knichel Logistics. And she was the one that was saying that. Really, intermodal freight crime doesn't happen all that much relative to trucks. So, trains can run for miles. And so, rail operators and flying drones with the drones that are flying over the cars and sending people out whenever they get a little too close to the train that's operating. So, there's a lot of different things that are going on within the intermodal space that attach to. The surface transportation, which I would include trucking in that, and how we're using drones and sophisticated technology in order to prevent this from happening, how it affects insurance rates, how if you're doing all of this and then not paying for truck parking, you're kind of all doing it for nothing. And so it just kind of wraps it all up into a nice bow, I think. And Grace, if you have any final words, would love to hear your. Cargo crime takeaways. Takeaways my cargo crime takeaway is as The dollar becomes higher and more valuable, the more likely goods are gonna be stolen, you know, and people are gonna find a way to do this. And I would think that when the economy gets tight too, people are going to find these routes, right? Even more so than before. I think we've covered all of the really interesting regulations, right, that make it much easier for these types of criminals to set foot in the U.S. and kick off these operations. But to your point, I hope that everyone takes like the simplest lessons out of all the work that you've done to the things that you can control, right? Where you are having people park. How you are running your operations. We talk about, we've made fun of AI a few times in this episode too. The thing though about AI is it doesn't work if you haven't figured out the simplest operation to get something done. I think it's the same thing here, right? Like focus on what you can control as a logistics provider. Listen to the people that I'm sure you interviewed and touch on those things. And then the rest is about reporting. Awesome that they have an anonymous way of doing that. I think that's helpful. But yeah, like it's the thing about fraud is I think sometimes we put our own foot in it and we screw it up by all the extra nonsense that we might do, right? To bend over backwards on a shipment or just to like get something delivered somewhere in time. Unless it's like, A human heart getting to an open chest. Like sometimes that ability to get everything everywhere we want it all the time is what's stopping us from being successful and stopping fraud. So I'm excited to check it out. I can't wait to see the interviews. Those are all really great people. And Anytime you can get in a read talking about fraud over truck parking and combining the two, that's a win for me. So I'm excited to check it out. Everyone should go see it themselves. We also got into a little bit of a discussion around our favorite topic that we haven't discussed in a long time, and that's Meghan Markle, the logistics. Of moving your family back, quote unquote, home It's funny you say that because at first I thought you were the one thing I also think I'm surprised we didn't talk about in this episode was the roadster. I'm like, did she make it through the whole thing and didn't mention the roadster once? Because you said something about flying cars, and I was like, oh, she's going to get it. She this is her. I missed my opportunity in order to talk about flying cars and the Hot Wheels track. I was super blown away by that. And I just, I know people have complicated feelings about Elon Musk, but the entertainment value that he provides for stunts like this, which, from my understanding, like this type of suction hydrogen technology that is Here's using. the girls. Has been around for a little while. And other car companies have been trying to do this, especially I think in like Formula One racing, because they can go around the tracks a little bit faster. I'm not a car person You know what by we any should means. do? Follow up to this, and we'll just tease it. Maybe we get done. We should do an episode with Craig on this because I, from a pilot's perspective, would love to hear his thoughts on these cars. I think he we, I think that's an episode where we just set it up and he knocks it down. 100%. Yes, we'll Maybe work we'll it, we'll do get a it year done. interview with Craig. Yes. This is this is it. Shout out to Craig Fuller over at Freight Waves, longtime supporter of both of us. So if he wants to come on the show, he should absolutely. Come on the show, we'll record it live, and then we'll be able to walk through the year and review and kind of preview what the upcoming year has in store for all of us. Maybe I we even think get we another just prediction, another market prediction. yeah, maybe we just manifested this episode and And also manifest, like geez. We do have a manifest episode coming up as well, first week of January. We will be recording with Tanzil over from the manifest team. We're going to be going through the whole agenda, talking about the great topics that they have, coming up and our favorite topics of what we want to see. And so, it's always good to get the manifest juices going a little bit. That sounds gross, but yeah, we're just gonna keep it going. And I think that's a perfect place. Yes. To end this episode, so Grace, where can folks follow you? Follow your work, get signed up for spooky ghost tours, all that good stuff. Yeah, you can follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, wherever you want. just Google my, I hate saying that, Google me, like, and then add me on things. Um, check out Orderful. Uh, we're heading to an event where we'll be showcasing 72-hour onboarding. Uh, Literally unheard of in the EDI industry, bringing that to ERP near you here soon. But I'm excited to showcase some of that work that we're doing behind the scenes and some of the agents that we've built into systems as well. But other than that, excited for the next episode with you, Blythe. I'm excited. We're back in a little bit of a good groove. Both had pretty heavy travel years. And so now that October's kind of settling down a little bit, you're about to go to Mexico though. But I think after that, that's when most of us will be settling down into the office before the new year, before really Manifest kind of kicks off or kicks off the new year. So I'm excited for all of these good things, the holiday season, all that stuff. But thank you again for joining us for the Spooky Supply Chain Special Edition of Freight Friends. Excited to get this one out there and share with folks. And if you need, if you want to check out any more of the work from these types of episodes, there is actually a landing page, a source to porch landing page over on everythingislogistics.com. It features Grace. Throughout the entire landing page, because we talk about all of those source to porch stories that I love talking about. And this was just kind of a greater episode on that topic. So thank you all again for tuning in, and we will see you in the next one.
